<?page no="0"?> Sierk A. Horn Intercultural Leadership: Exercises in Action <?page no="1"?> utb 6375 Eine Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Verlage Brill | Schöningh - Fink · Paderborn Brill | Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht · Göttingen - Böhlau · Wien · Köln Verlag Barbara Budrich · Opladen · Toronto facultas · Wien Haupt Verlag · Bern Verlag Julius Klinkhardt · Bad Heilbrunn Mohr Siebeck · Tübingen Narr Francke Attempto Verlag - expert verlag · Tübingen Psychiatrie Verlag · Köln Ernst Reinhardt Verlag · München transcript Verlag · Bielefeld Verlag Eugen Ulmer · Stuttgart UVK Verlag · München Waxmann · Münster · New York wbv Publikation · Bielefeld Wochenschau Verlag · Frankfurt am Main <?page no="2"?> Dr. Sierk A. Horn is Professor for Business Communication and Intercultural Com‐ petence at Munich University of Applied Sciences. He has worked in various roles in European and Asian Business Schools and as an executive in commercial semiotics. He holds a PhD in Japanese Studies from Freie Universität Berlin. Much of his work takes the perspective of the resilience of individuals and organisations in cross-cultural contexts. <?page no="3"?> Sierk A. Horn Intercultural Leadership: Exercises in Action UVK Verlag · München <?page no="4"?> DOI: https: / / doi.org/ 10.36198/ 9783838563756 © UVK Verlag 2025 ‒ Ein Unternehmen der Narr Francke Attempto Verlag GmbH + Co. KG Dischingerweg 5 · D-72070 Tübingen Das Werk einschließlich aller seiner Teile ist urheberrechtlich geschützt. Jede Verwertung außerhalb der engen Grenzen des Urheberrechtsgesetzes ist ohne Zustimmung des Verlages unzulässig und strafbar. Das gilt insbesondere für Vervielfältigungen, Übersetzungen, Mikroverfilmungen und die Einspeicherung und Verarbeitung in elektronischen Systemen. Alle Informationen in diesem Buch wurden mit großer Sorgfalt erstellt. Fehler können dennoch nicht völlig ausgeschlossen werden. Weder Verlag noch Autor: innen oder Herausgeber: innen übernehmen deshalb eine Gewährleistung für die Korrektheit des Inhaltes und haften nicht für fehlerhafte Angaben und deren Folgen. Diese Publikation enthält gegebenenfalls Links zu externen Inhalten Dritter, auf die weder Verlag noch Autor: innen oder Herausgeber: innen Einfluss haben. Für die Inhalte der verlinkten Seiten sind stets die jeweiligen Anbieter oder Betreibenden der Seiten verantwortlich. Internet: www.narr.de eMail: info@narr.de Einbandgestaltung: siegel konzeption | gestaltung Druck: Elanders Waiblingen GmbH utb-Nr. 6375 ISBN 978-3-8252-6375-1 (Print) ISBN 978-3-8385-6375-6 (ePDF) ISBN 978-3-8463-6375-1 (ePub) Umschlagabbildung: © Pavlo Stavnichuk iStockphoto Bibliografische Information der Deutschen Nationalbibliothek Die Deutsche Nationalbibliothek verzeichnet diese Publikation in der Deutschen Nationalbibliografie; detaillierte bibliografische Daten sind im Internet über http: / / dnb.dnb.de abrufbar. <?page no="5"?> 7 1 11 2 19 3 29 4 39 5 49 6 57 7 65 8 75 9 85 10 91 11 101 12 109 13 117 14 133 Contents Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Bela Schweiger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Bernd Wachter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Markus Thinnes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Florian Kohlbacher . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Dirk Weber . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Andrew Staples . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Tobias Off . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Maarten de Vries . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Sascha Singer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with NC Prakash . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Bosco Novak . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Stefan Schmale . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Interview with Christian Geltinger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . <?page no="7"?> Introduction This book brings together the intercultural leadership experiences of 14 seasoned executives. They have worked for many years for iconic organisations operating in different sectors of Euro-Asian business. All have had to adapt their leadership styles to working across cultures. In sharing their extensive experiences, they offer candid and unfiltered insights into their learning curves, adaptation efforts and, ultimately, success factors of intercultural leadership styles. The Euro-Asian Business context put their leadership potential to the test. They had to learn about the local rules of engagement and reflect on what these changes did to them as human beings. Over time, they acquired a rich repertoire of techniques that helped them (i) make sense of their intercultural experiences, (ii) become more flexible when engaging with unfamiliar ways of doing things, and (iii) improve their leadership skills. And all this, they share with you, the readers of this book. The collection of interviews accompanies my textbook “Intercultural Leadership: Humanistic Perspectives,” published also with UTB (ISBN: 9783825261863). I emphasise the importance of learning, mutual appreciation, resilience, and, most importantly, recognising our shared humanity. The book is based on three key assumptions: (i) Intercultural leadership is relational, flowing from how others perceive and trust us; (ii) intercultural leadership is situational, triggered by “culture bumps” (Archer & Nickson, 2012) or moments of irritation that require thoughtful responses; and (iii) intercultural leadership relies on communication skills in creating rapport. For more information about the textbook and its features go to www.intercultural-leadership.org. In the same vein, this book wishes to challenge stereotypical views of culture as a source of differences. We need to look at what is going on inside us to explain what happens on the outside. The best way to do this is to provide evidence of what executives actually do when engaging with people of different cultural backgrounds. My interview partners emphasise curiosity, respect, and humility in intercultural interactions. All this transcends to how we communicate, most notably how we create rapport through listening, observing, and framing our ideas with care. The Euro-Asian business context is, at the same time, one of the most prominent, most changing and most demanding intercultural arenas. The very different customs, communication styles, and business practices provide a true litmus test for leaders. I have deliberately chosen the interview partners to show the spectrum and extent of their learning and adaptation efforts. All interviewees have worked or are working in different industries across North and Southeast Asia and, collectively, provide great insights into intercultural management: • Anon., Thought Leader, Germany • Maarten De Vries, Julius Blum GmbH, Malaysia • Christian Geltinger, State of Bavaria, Germany <?page no="8"?> • Florian Kohlbacher, Thought Leader, Japan • Bosco Novak, Rohde & Schwarz GmbH & Co KG, Germany • Tobias Off, blue automation GmbH, Germany • NC Prakash, Rohde & Schwarz GmbH & Co KG, Singapore • Stefan Schmale, NOIX Foods (Tianjin) Co., Ltd., China • Bela Schweiger, Enter Japan K.-K., Japan • Sascha Singer, thyssenkrupp Presta AG, Liechtenstein • Andrew Staples, The Economist Group, Singapore • Markus Thinnes, UMI Asia AG, Switzerland, and MTex K.-K., Japan • Bernd Wachter, ALPLA GmbH & Co KG, Thailand • Dirk Weber, Former SCM-Manager, Germany With this book, my interview partners and I offer insights into the realities of working across cultures in a very pragmatic and applied way. I hope their practical experience and real-world examples motivate and inspire your learning journey. All of my interviewees offer authentic ways of thinking about intercultural challenges that you are dealing with either as part of your studies or your on-the-ground experiences. Without a doubt, the insights gleaned from the interviews offer ample opportunities for thinking about and dealing with the challenges of intercultural leadership. You can use the book to explore about (i) intercultural leadership conceptualisations, (ii) intercultural leadership challenges, and, more specifically, (iii) management in East Asia. Either way, I recommend using this book as a workbook in conjunction with the textbook on intercultural leadership. • The interviews will illustrate the key concepts covered in my textbook. Each interview ends with at least one exercise taking up its theoretical ideas. They are designed to reinforce and apply the materials covered, thus promoting a more profound and realistic understanding of the emotional and cognitive processes set in motion by culture bumps. You can work on the questions independently or explore them in in-class discussions. The basic structure of the book is the same as the textbook. It looks at intercultural encounters and tests your knowledge through three main lenses: (i) Antecedents of intercultural encounters (sensing differences), (ii) mental processes surrounding intercultural interactions (giving meaning to cultural differences), and (iii) responding to cultural differences (dealing with differences). Of course, there is no definitive answer to what makes intercultural leadership successful - there are simply too many variables involved (as evidenced in the interviews) - but I have no doubt that the exercises will bring the systematic presentation of factors influencing intercultural leadership to light. Combining theory (textbook) and practice (workbook) should encourage readers to reflect on their feelings and thoughts and how they may affect behaviour and communication across cultures. • I initially used ChatGPT to sift through the vast amounts of data. Upon closer, human inspection, I identified five key themes that united all my interview 8 Introduction <?page no="9"?> partners. First, they collectively make clear that genuine curiosity, the willingness to explore and to see the world with keen eyes, is a key to successfully navigating intercultural encounters. Secondly, perspective-taking is a further crucial part of an intercultural skill set. All my interview partners stressed that the ability to creep into the minds of others and to make an effort to see the world through their eyes is an important step for good contact. Thirdly, the all-too-common overemphasis on cultural differences (and, by extension, the presumed litany of barriers and inefficiencies) blocks the view of more reflective and respectful interaction. Fourthly, good intercultural communication shifts the perspective from talking to listening, from ignorance to awareness, and from judgement to exploration.. We have to absorb what is happening around us with all our senses. Fifth, they all warn us of cultural stereotyping. Regions are highly diverse. And even country cultures are fascinatingly heterogeneous. The secret to success is that we should treat each other as individuals (respecting our shared experiences and humanity). • This book is a great starting point if you seek concrete answers to intercultural management issues in an Euro-Asian context. Conceptually, it lets each of my interview partners speak for themselves about their experiences with and solutions for working across cultures. In so doing, the book enables learners to gain detailed and original insights that are often difficult to access through other formats. The variety of perspectives promotes a broader understanding of intercultural leadership issues and allows readers to identify and compare different views. I believe that the documentation of the rich experiences of my interviewees will provide an invaluable source of inspiration for students of international business in general and East Asian business in particular. Though there are many overlapping issues (all mirroring the importance of humanistic perspectives in international management), I have found that my interview partners offer unique ways of looking at leading across cultures. I discuss these insights at the end of each interview. Additionally, questions invite you to more intensively reflect on what was said and place this in the context of your own knowledge of Euro-Asian leadership. Now, let’s dive in and start our journey. I do hope that you enjoy learning from the first-hand impressions of intercultural leadership as much as I did when conducting the interviews. Introduction 9 <?page no="11"?> 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger Sierk Horn (SH): Could you kindly introduce yourself to our readers? Bela Schweiger (BS): I started my international career with Coca-Cola and moved from Hungary to Vienna. During this time, I oversaw innovation and product devel‐ opment in greater Europe. Then, I changed locations and industries. I joined Western Union Financial Services and relocated to Dubai. There, I was responsible for Southeast Asia, spanning 22 countries. Afterwards, I set up a small company and moved to Singapore. I enjoyed living in Singapore’s predictable environment for the next three years. Then, to my surprise, I was approached by a recruiter about a job and a company that I was unaware of at the time. They were looking for a solid business marketeer person with a consumer focus to start in Japan. Was I interested? And I said, “Yes, it was always okay to move around.” I have always liked exploring new environments and new cultures. When I was flown to Tokyo, I learned that the hiring company was Nokia, Japan. I had a daylong session with seven or eight interviews. Around two weeks later, I got a call from the recruiter. I packed up and arrived in Japan. That was almost 20 years ago. When I started working for Nokia, I was initially Japan’s head of sales and marketing. Then Nokia reorganised in an exciting way: The usual way that companies split their worldwide operations is along the lines of geography. Nokia conducted a fantastic global study that looked at several parameters. Two key elements were how advanced the mobile infrastructure is and how consumers use the technology. The outcome of that study was astonishing: Korea and Japan were paired together as countries on the same level from an infrastructure point of view, i.e., speed of transmission and coverage and knowledge and savvy consumers. Suddenly, the organisation said that these countries are at a certain level of growth, so Nokia must introduce specific types of investments and models to meet that level for consumers. It was fantastic to learn how a global company takes localisation ideas forward while pushing the global flair of a brand to a completely new level. After five very happy years at Nokia, there was a major tectonic shift in the mobile phone industry: the iPhone. By then, Nokia had a 44 % market share, and almost overnight, Apple started taking it away. So quickly that Nokia very soon decided to close almost all their operations. Japan was a tough market for Nokia, as was Korea. Everything needed to be custom-made for these markets, so these two markets were among the first to shut down. It was a major hit to the whole Nokia organisation. Japan was way ahead in terms of technology, mobile communication systems and applications. The research and development centre for Nokia for the globe was in Tokyo. Almost 500 people worked in that development centre, and Nokia decided to close that down. I think that was the wrong decision to make. They got amazing ideas from the Japanese market and <?page no="12"?> then created breakthrough global models that incorporated what was already standard in Japan. I think luck played a major role in my life. I also believe in networking. I got to know a lovely American gentleman who was heading up the Häagen-Dazs joint venture. His assignment in Japan was up. He wanted to return to the US so his two daughters could start their respective universities and high schools there. He asked me, “I am looking for my successor. Do you know anyone? ” I answered, “How about me? ” He replied, “Well, just send over your CV and let’s see.” He shared my CV, and then I had a few interviews. There was a board meeting that even the CEO of General Mills attended, although he was not a board member. I happened to be, of course, there. At the end of four or five interviews, my future boss told me, “By the way, our CEO is here, and I think you should meet him.” So, I met the CEO again, which turned into almost the same story as with Nokia. I would start in a couple of weeks. They said, “Okay, talk to the current gentleman and start the transitioning process.” That’s how I ended up working in Häagen-Dazs Japan, which is a joint venture between General Mills, Häagen-Dazs, and Takanashi Dairies made up of 50 % General Mills, 40 % Suntory and 10 % Takanashi. I had another great five years in an all-Japanese team. I was the only foreigner there and had amazing power due to the 50 % General Mills owned in the organisation. It was a wonderful setup in some ways. There were only two board directors, the vice president of the joint venture and the board director at the same time. Both came from General Mills and, therefore, that was me. Suntory always nominated and appointed the president. So, it created an interesting dynamic and working culture where the local team needed to run everything through me to get the approval, especially when it came to new product developments, communication etc. It was a fun and very interesting position to be in. After another five years, General Mills underwent a major restructuring. I feel like it’s a pendulum swinging all the time that sometimes these major companies go all the way to localise their management. And then the pendulum swings back. Now, everything needs to be coordinated by the headquarters. So, imagine General Mills decided that all international offices are closed, and everything will be managed out of Minneapolis. When we agreed to disagree on this point, I said, “Good luck to you, trying to manage a 400-plus workforce from your office in Minneapolis with a 13-hour time difference.” And not to mention some communication barriers and I’m not talking about language. I’m talking about how you get a good feel for what is actually happening. I then left Häagen-Dazs to set up my own company, trying to help businesses that would like to enter the Japanese market, international businesses, and Japanese businesses aiming to expand and succeed outside Japan. Currently, I’m helping a company’s new business division to get around with a focus on carbon footprint reduction and sustainability, especially in the agricultural sector in Japan. 12 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger <?page no="13"?> SH: You mentioned the importance of communication. How important is communica‐ tion when leading a foreign company operating in Japan? Do we need people who speak Japanese on the ground? What kind of people are they? BS: I am okay in Japanese, but as you know, you never stop learning. Of course, there’s no fluency, no native level of Japanese. It doesn’t exist. Even for the natives, it doesn’t exist. I feel that, in my case, I try to keep it a little vague how much I actually understand or how I grasp the real in-between-the-lines meanings that the Japanese language is so full of. I do so because I feel that the moment you start speaking too good Japanese, Japanese tend to, in my experience, trust you less. And I can’t explain to you why. Nokia's working language was English, so that was not so much an issue. But in Häagen-Dazs, it was Japanese. And once they feel that you understand more than they think, you rob them of the behind-your-back chat. Or they become more conscious of what they can or cannot say or what they want to say and won’t say. Then there is the extreme I sometimes meet when a person is incredibly fluent in Japanese. It is incredibly well received. The person will get very, very high positions. Companies later realise that language fluency does not equal business fluency. They are not as good businessmen, marketers, or salesmen as they thought they were because their language is so good. So, when it comes to recruiting, companies put, I believe, too heavy an emphasis on absolute fluency in Japanese to be able to do this job. But I think you need to be culturally fluent. You need to understand the context in which people operate. And it doesn’t mean that you need to be able to understand God knows how many dialects there are in Japan. My wife is Japanese. Sometimes, we watch the news on TV, and someone in the countryside is interviewed. And I absolutely have no idea what the person is saying because they speak in the Akita dialect. And I asked my wife, “So what is the person saying? ” And my wife looks and says, “I have no idea. I don’t either.” So, for me, that cultural background and cultural understanding are much, much more important than whether you speak the language perfectly without mistakes. SH: As a recruiter, you look at linguistic or business skills, but according to you, there is something in between, which you refer to as cultural fluency. Could you define this for me? BS: The way I see cultural fluency is, of course, respecting the norms. These you pick up very, very easily. However, in addition to that, understanding the context is paramount. Is it a low context, or is it a high context environment? How much do you need to explain? How many questions do you need to ask so that you really understand what they mean? Japan, to me, is an incredibly high-context environment. Japan is unlike any other culture in which I have worked. In American culture, you can drop an idea, and people will run with it. They will start talking about it, immediately criticising, building, or accepting it. In Japan, you cannot do that. They will shut down immediately if you simply drop an idea without any preamble, a lead-up, or not providing any kind 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger 13 <?page no="14"?> of background. Of course, they won’t directly show you that they shut down, but their brains will basically not process what you are trying to get through to them. I will give you one example from my Haagen-Dazs times when I was very involved with developing new products. My European background inspired the first idea that I came up with. I just blurted out the idea of what we should do, what ingredients we should use, and so on. I did so because its cinnamon flavour is so common where I grew up. I almost blew that opportunity because I did that. What I should have rather done is tell a fireside story. Imagine sitting around a campfire and taking them, the team, on a little bit of a memory lane. With my grandmother, I could still feel the smell of cinnamon weaving through the air as she prepared this. Then, they could replace cinnamon with something that they are familiar with. The same image would come up in their minds. Suddenly, we started to have a conversation, a discussion. For me, cultural fluency is when you say more than you think you should. Don’t be afraid to over-explain yourself in the Japanese environment. Such storytelling is highly important because there is this natural resistance to change or trying something new. You phrase your ideas carefully with respect for the local culture. How important is it to listen to what the Japanese say? Likewise, it is very important to listen. Also, you need to learn to separate what the reaction is going to be in a team meeting. As in every culture and every organisation, I try to find out who the real opinion leaders are. Who is listening to whom in the team? After the group or team meetings, I very often sat down one-on-one. Then, it was their time to tell me a story. “Okay, Saito-San, you heard me. You were very supportive of the idea, but what do you really think? ” The trick hereby is not to say, “What do you really think.” In Japan, it is really effective to ask, “Tell me about your experience.” He was an experienced product developer and innovator. So, I asked him, “Tell me about your experience when you tried something new.” I did not even reference what we were talking about. But how he went about it. Then, gradually, he started to come out, which they would never do in a team setting or a large-scale business meeting. For me, the most interesting revelation was when he said, “Bela-San, quite frankly, I do not remember the last time I tasted cinnamon.” The way he put it was much more than not having the flavour memory. What he meant was, “I can hardly wait to get to the lab and get samples of cinnamon and start playing around with it.” We ended up creating an amazing product with cinnamon in it. SH: How did you develop this kind of business or cultural fluency? Can everybody learn it? BS: I think everyone will learn it to fit their own style. How did I learn it? I think I learned it through making a heck of a lot of mistakes. I probably made enough cultural blunders to put me in jail for the rest of my life. I was actually very lucky, especially during my General Mills times. It was then that I met my wife. She became an amazing sounding board. Very often, I asked her, “Do you think it is the right thing for me to 14 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger <?page no="15"?> do? ” Sometimes, the teams will say yes because of your rank and title. Not because they think it is the right thing to do. That is where I found it very important to understand what they really think. You gradually start to learn how to do it in the Japanese context. Also, take them out after work. Get them into a comfortable place. Then, they do not need to behave anymore in the way that the corporate environment would require. Another interesting thing was that they would very rarely open up about their family. In some other cultures, getting that bond of talking about families and getting to know your daughter, your son, and your wife is an important part of trust creation. Japanese, in my experience, would rather let me discuss a TV show or a sporting event, but not really anything family-related. In my view, most Japanese tend to be very, very private. Sharing something interesting with them always helped me to break through. One interesting observation I had over the years about myself is that whenever I met Japanese people, they looked at my name, which was German-sounding, but they didn’t know what to do with my first name. They looked at me, okay, foreigner, that’s for sure. White, that’s for sure. They started listening to me, and they couldn’t place my accent. It’s not American, it’s not German, it’s not French. It’s also unusual for the Japanese to go as far as to say, “So, where are you from? ” It’s not always easy for them to even ask that type of personal question unless it’s very obvious or you state it upfront, and I didn’t. Then I said I am from Hungary. I believe this played to my advantage in Japan because we, as humans, have our little reference boxes. Okay, an American will behave like this; a German will behave like this. But suddenly, I am in a no man’s land in their mind. They then try to figure out where I am from. This certainly starts a conversation. And some of them say, “Oh, I visited Budapest.” This helped as a breakthrough because I was out of the normal pigeonhole, which also allowed me to sometimes behave in a different way than they would have expected from another culture. After all, they don’t know how Hungarians behave. SH: How do you create trust with your business partners in Japan? BS: Trust is vital. Without trust, you won’t survive in a Japanese environment. And you will notice the moment when your Japanese business partners stop trusting you because you will be excluded. Information will not go your way. So, the Japanese are very subtle about isolating you without openly isolating you. I don’t know how others create trust. For me, it was delivered on your promises. Let’s say with Häagen-Dazs, I needed to get things through, sometimes with approvals and sometimes with buying additional investment from Minneapolis. And for me that was really the way to be able to build up this trust when they said, “Can you talk to my boss? Or can we even talk to the CEO? We need this. Can you support us on this? ” The common way before I joined was very much Japanese against the Americans. And I, luckily, again, was not American. Therefore, I was able to become this cultural bridge between Japan and the US. I was able to explain to the US what the Japanese really meant by this. And this is why we like to go ahead with this or that. And it worked the other way around, too. 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger 15 <?page no="16"?> Let me give you an example: General Mills introduced a very interesting manage‐ ment philosophy, which was all about holistic margin management. That was the title. Initially, the Japanese team completely misunderstood what this was about. They thought that it was a simple exercise of cutting costs and giving more money back to the shareholders. You can’t imagine how many hours I explained that this is a very different approach. “Yes, you are not identifying the cost to save, but the unnecessary spending.” The programme was about taking the waste out of the system. Once you identify what is not needed and free up that resource, be it financial or manual labour resource, you can reallocate it back to the business where there isn’t enough funding. With this funding, you can grow much faster. And it took a very, very long time to make sense of this new management philosophy. The American management team said, “Bela, why is it so difficult to understand we are not taking the money? We want to put the money back in.” A lesson from this episode was that you need to be able to show how something works in real life through a real example. Then your Japanese colleagues will under‐ stand. I sat down with my marketing team and asked them, “How much are we paying for one TV spot? ” And they told me, “One GRP is XYZ yen.” And I asked them, “So how much is Suntory paying for their media buying? ” And they said, “Okay, we’ll ask Suntory.” We got the quote from Suntory on how much they pay for one spot. And I almost fell off the chair. It was so much cheaper. I told the team, “Let’s sit down with the Suntory media team and let us ask them to buy our media together.” All of a sudden, they were like, “Yeah, that sounds great. Which means we are paying less. What about the money that we are going to save? ” And I said, “We will have more. You can put more GRPs, and we can increase our communication effectiveness.” That’s when they realised, “You mean we are not putting the money back in the bottom line? ” I replied, “No! The marketing budget stays the same. We don’t change the marketing budget. But now, because they are going to buy the media at their lower price, you can get more. Instead of x, we can have y.” As it happens, a Japanese company is like a small village. The news spread around very quickly. So, the marketing team became my internal spokesperson for this whole concept of a new management style. That’s when I knew how it worked and turned to the logistics team. They were amazing in coming up with an idea of cutting waste. Häagen-Dazs usually used its own charter delivery trucks to get the ice cream to the stores. Occasionally, the trucks were half or even hardly filled. The logistics team came to me and said, “Could we talk to other frozen food companies? Would General Mills allow it? ” I replied, “As long as it does not contaminate our products, why not? ” So, they went ahead, and the outcome was we paid about 80 plus yen per case to be delivered. And once we brought this joint delivery on board, the cost per case went down to about 55. And then again, the logistics team asked, “So what do we do? ” And I answered, “Where do you think the freed-up money could be best used? In your organisation or, in your unit or another unit? ” It turned out that the money should be well spent in the factory to improve the accuracy 16 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger <?page no="17"?> of the robots. They needed some investment there. Finally, the story came together in their mind, again increasing the trust and credibility I carried in the organisation. SH: This is a wonderful story about how you created trust. But trust goes in two directions. What about the other side? Of course, you spoke Japanese at that moment in time. And you had cultural fluency. But for these kinds of decisions, you rely on local staff to get you the right input. How did you start trusting them to give you the right information? BS: I think inherently, Japanese are very proud of what they do. And their approach is “face.” They never want to lose face. Neither do they want you to lose face. Japanese are very, very sensitive about that. One of my favourite sayings is that one very lovely gentleman always told me that we measure twice and cut once. And that almost made me very comfortable in trusting whatever they were proposing. They never brought anything to me that I felt was just put together at the last minute. I always felt it was double-checked, triple-checked. So, I usually give the Japanese the benefit of the doubt to start with. Put differently, I open a bank account of trust for them. And in my mind, they need to do something unusual or unexpected to lose that trust. SH: What advice would you give to somebody being seconded to Japan? It’s her or his first time in Tokyo or in Osaka. What advice would you give that person? BS: Observe, observe, observe. That would be number one. Number two, spend as much time as you can learning the history. Learn where the organisation comes from and what happened before you were there. Learn what the team is really proud of. Learn what the company has achieved. Then you start realising that Japanese people spend time and work in that organisation for a long time, several years, or even decades. My own lesson about Häagen-Dazs was when I learned the history and found something interesting. I approached some of the veterans in the organisation and said, “Can you tell me more? ” And it was, “Oh, we don’t remember.” And that gave me a fantastic opportunity with the whole team. I decided to revisit the history of Häagen-Dazs. It was a tremendous bonding experience. Aha! This is Interesting • Bela emphasises the significance of respecting and aptly responding to local customs and beliefs. With culture so fundamentally shaping people’s behaviour we must be attentive to both cultural differences and similarities between us and others. Cultural fluency is more than local language skills. Knowledge about social norms and pervasive values helps make sense of cross-cultural interactions. As opposed to language learning, there is no predefined path to developing cultural fluency. Rather, it is a trial-and-error process. We need to be open to learning from mistakes and put lessons learned to practice. • In intercultural contexts, ideas must be framed and presented with care. Bela introduces us to the power of storytelling in fostering understanding and building 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger 17 <?page no="18"?> relationships. Stories transform knowledge or information into experiences, ideally creating emotional resonance. We want others to appreciate and partake in our reasoning. And narratives make complex ideas, emotions, and values accessible to people from different cultural backgrounds. In short, through storytelling, people can connect on a more human level without the heavy veneer of cultural differences. • Bela believes that consistent actions help build rapport. Specifically, he advises us that we have to deliver on our promises. Walking-the-talk fosters perceptions of reliability and integrity. These, in turn, create trust. After all, actions say more than a thousand words. They are a reflection of one’s true intent, character, and competence. This makes “showing” rather than “telling” (let alone boasting) so central in intercultural leadership situations. You signal respect for others and convey that you value precision and attention to detail. Showing how you do things makes for great learning opportunities, which, in turn, help bridge cultural gaps. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are the six epochs of cross-cultural management research? Why is it timely to explore intercultural processes at an individual level? • How are emic perspectives valuable in cross-cultural management research? 2) Leadership in East Asia • When in Japan, does speaking the local language automatically create trust? • Does fluency in an Asian language equate to business fluency in that country? • Edward T. Hall used highand low-context to describe how people in different cultures communicate and interpret information. What context type is Japan, and how does it affect idea creation? • Why is it important in Japan to identify opinion leaders within teams? • How is communication outside work important to get a feel for what Japanese colleagues really think and feel? • What topics could be considered good icebreakers in Japan? What would be considered taboo? • In a Japanese business context, what are signals of lack of trust? • Why is it so important in Japan to show how something works through a real example? • How can understanding the company’s history be helpful in making an impact in Japan? • How is “etiquette” (an inner compass of appropriate and diplomatic behaviour) helpful in adjusting to local ways of doing things? 18 1 Interview with Bela Schweiger <?page no="19"?> 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter Sierk Horn (SH): Could you kindly introduce yourself to our readers? Bernd Wachter (BW): I’m an Austrian citizen. I left Austria when I was 34 and have lived in Asia for 19 years. This entire time, I was based in Asia as an expat and sent from Austria to the Asian hemisphere. I’m coming from the commercial direction. I completed the Handelsakademie in Bludenz (Vorarlberg) and studied political economy after this. After my studies, I worked for insurance companies and other service providers in Austria. Before I left Austria, I was employed at the Austrian Ski Federation, specifically as the General Secretary and Managing Director of Ski Vorarlberg. Through this connection, I came to know Alpla, who was a supporter of the Ski Federation back then. We started discussing whether I would be interested in starting to work for the group in China. At this point in time, they were not investing in China because of the property rights issues. Until 2006, you could not own any land in China. This changed during that period, so Alpla decided that they must pay attention to the Chinese market but should be there as a global player. Therefore, I moved to China in May of 2006 to build up the first factory for them in Tianjin, the harbour city of Beijing at the Yellow Sea. I was the first employee for Alpla in China. From 2006 until 2012, I constructed five more factories along the East Coast in China. Next to Tianjin, to be precise in Shanghai, Hefei, Guangzhou, Jingzhou, and finally, in Taicang. After that, I had a bigger responsibility to look after Alpla’s China operations and those in Southeast Asia as Regional Managing Director. And with that, I moved from Tianjin, where I was based, to Thailand. Between 2010 and 2013, I headed up the two regions: China and Southeast Asia. During that time, I built up an organisation of up to 2000 employees in ten factories in different countries. Later, we relocated to Vietnam, where we conducted a green field operation. After that, we moved to the Philippines. Under my leadership, with my regional and local team in the Philippines, we built two in-house factories for a leading global beverage player. In 2019, we agreed to tie up with PTT Global Chemical and formed a new recycling joint venture named “ENVICCO” in Rayong/ Thailand. Envicco stands for Environmental Circular Collaboration and is the first recycling factory for the ALPLA group across Asia. This is a real lighthouse project/ investment for our group. Today, I’m still based in Bangkok. Three years ago, I officially changed responsibility to be Corporate Director of Circular Economy & Recycling across Asia . Alpla wants to do more in terms of recycling and circularity. We want to become the leader in packaging, not only when it comes to perfect packaging product development and mass customisation but also in terms of recycling and circularity. We committed to investing at least 50 million euros a year in the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. Today, we exceed that yearly since we are growing massively in recycling. I’m responsible for <?page no="20"?> this side of the business in Asia, which effectively means China, Southeast Asia, India, and geographically everything up to Turkey. SH: Thank you, Bernd, for this quick overview. So obviously, you have plenty of experience as an intercultural leader, dealing with different kinds of people across Asia. Could you briefly explain to us how important communication is in your daily job as a manager? And are there perhaps regional differences? You mentioned you have been to so many different places across Asia. BW: I would say communication is the major factor in leadership across Asia. I also believe that the same applies in Europe. But especially in Asia, I think it’s very, very important. Despite all the time I spent in Asia, I’m still a foreigner. I was not born in Thailand, Vietnam, or the Philippines; indeed, I was born in a completely different country. So, growing up in Austria, I learned my values from my parents, family, and friends and my time in school. Therefore, I would say I was raised 100 % in Austria. Of course, I also had some touchpoints with other countries across Europe, but my upbringing greatly influenced the way I communicated. And the Asian context is just very, very different. When it comes to communication, for me, it is very important to have the capability to be a very good listener. This is precisely the precondition where everything starts. You need to listen carefully; you need to try to understand what the person beside you or on the other side of the table wants to explain to you. You need to try to swap seats to tell yourself, “What is Mr. or Mrs. X wanting to convey at that moment? ” Based on this, you must try to understand. In addition, you also need to be eager to ask questions. Most of the time, things are unclear at the first entry point of a discussion. You must ask people, “Please help me understand what you mean with that.” Importantly all of this needs to be put very politely. Asians, in general, I would say, have ears that are different from those of Austria, Germany, or Central Europe. They have a very different understanding and sensitivity when it comes down to tone or politeness. Correspondingly, I need to ask very politely if something needs to be clarified. Most of the time, it’s not 100 % clear for us Europeans. You must not be afraid to ask and try to help the person on the other side open up and explain clearly what one’s intention is. Under these conditions, you can create the right ambience and level of trust between each other to open up and come to a clearer picture, hopefully a very clear picture (for us as Europeans or expats). You must create the right context for trust. If the person trusts you, they will open up. You give him or her a level of comfort, which is very important to get down to the core of the message and the real information. Remember, in business, many factors influence certain topics. With the right ambience and level of trust, I believe you can get the real picture at a very high level of assurance or reality as such. SH: Yeah. So, you say, listen, listen, listen, observe, observe, observe, and try to create trust by creating a good ambience, a good atmosphere. In what languages do you speak to your colleagues? ? 20 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter <?page no="21"?> BW: In business, we defined within the Alpla Group that our overall language used across the globe is English. This means that at the managerial level, the top and middle management levels all need to speak English okay. “Okay” English means depending on where the plant is. But this also varies, right? If you talk to a person raised in Bangkok and maybe attended a very good middle school or a university, then it’s easier. But if you go to remote locations, I would say that the English and expertise levels may not be at the same level as Bangkok. English language skills vary enormously. But in general, the prerequisite here is to have English command at the managerial level. And if you go further down to the supervisory levels, English language skills are undoubtedly good to have. But if you go down to the operator level, it’s most likely the local language - Chinese, Vietnamese, or Thai. So yes, we speak and move topics in English. And this is the way we operate in the group. SH: You mean speaking the local language is not that important at a managerial level? BW: Communication is important. However, there are other factors that might be more important than speaking the local language. Of course, if you operate a plant, and if you are working on the shop floor, and you need to communicate with the people daily, then you need to speak the local language. This ensures that you have the right level of depth. Moving on to nitty gritty topics, or if I talk about things such as a “Beilagscheiben” or the “O-Ring,” if it comes down to such technical terms, it’s very important to speak the local language. In many parts of Asia, the English proficiency is still not that high. But on a managerial level, you can definitely move topics in English and the management has to cascade the topics down into the organisation. Having said this, crucial functions such as GMs and some regional functions are occupied by expats. We must have contact with the head office on a daily or weekly basis. For us, it’s essential to have a knowledge transfer from the head office into the regions, no matter which region. And there is a lot of interaction going on. This is easier if we have certain people in the appropriate positions, such as expats or localised expats (though not everyone is on an expat package); those people who are mobile. They may have a Thai or a Vietnamese wife or, vice versa, a husband in that country. It’s very important that the cultural exchange also takes place. Through them, we ensure that the values we represent are also conveyed, in addition to moving business topics. Communication is key, proper communication. During the growth phase, I always had European personnel, if possible, with German capabilities. Of course, I also had English-speaking personnel. But if I had the opportunity to choose a person on the same skill levels and, for example, one was speaking German, and the other person did not, speaking the German language was of an advantage. I do not want to say this was the key factor to choose, but it was an advantage. For instance, if I sit in Thailand, and my GM in the Philippines speaks German, there is a trust, a trust relationship, created through sharing the same language. I get a red for red, a yellow for yellow, and I get a green for a green. This is also something which was key, I believe, for my success and our success as Alpla in the past: We have had key personnel distributed across the region with whom you could really talk, most likely in the same language. We had the 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter 21 <?page no="22"?> same understanding because these people were on the ground every day. They were at the plant in the Philippines every day and saw things themselves. I received the information I needed from those people, most likely in unfiltered or very little filtered ways. I would say if the same person spoke Filipino, he or she would convey the same message, but it could distort the picture slightly. SH: So, you have key personnel who can speak German with you, a network of that. But how did you select these people? What other aspects would they need to bring to the table? BW: I think everyone who wants to be successful in the Asian hemisphere must have a high level of emotional intelligence. With that, I mean to be sensitive, a good listener and try to understand things and messages conveyed, not only verbal messages but also expressions and how people talk and interact with you. It is crucial that you have a high sensitivity level in terms of the emotional side as such. Not every manager who is super successful in Germany, Austria, or Switzerland, I just named some countries, will be successful in this part of the world. The company might have a vacancy in Asia. It may be believed that a certain person would be a good fit since he or she is super successful here. They then send him or her to Asia. I know of cases where companies dramatically failed and had to make decisions and change personnel and organisations because it was just not working out. Leadership, I would say, seems to look different in Germany. I believe that the emotional capability of a person who comes to Asia should be very high. You need to have this capability. There is an emotional part and an empathy part. They go hand in hand with the emotional intelligence. You need to talk, for example, to a Thai person in entirely different ways than you are used to. The perception of communication and how to talk to people is just different from talking to someone who speaks Austrian, German or Swiss. You could have the best education, be the best manager in Europe, and still fail in Asia. SH: I think emotionality, however, goes in two directions. Number one is being emotionally intelligent, showing empathy, and stepping into other people’s shoes. But living for such a long time in another cultural context emotionality also has to do with emotional regulation. Some things are just done differently in Asia, and sometimes you are surprised or upset about these things. BW: This is something that happens most likely every day. You have setbacks throughout the day, the weeks, and the months. You have setbacks; you boil inside many times. You don’t understand why things are, for example, going in the wrong direction. Then, you might criticise yourself. You tell yourself, “Maybe I have communicated unclearly to the team or the person.” So, you have to live with setbacks daily alongside your decisions, whether business or private, because things are different in Asia. I will now talk specifically about Thailand, but this is also true in other countries. I have been in Thailand for more than 14 years. I believe I understand Thais at a very okay level 22 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter <?page no="23"?> as such. But still, I’m far away from understanding Thai psychology and their way of thinking in detail. So, this is different. I can give you one example. In Thailand, there are two terms. One is called “Baramee,” and one is called “Grengjai.” If a Thai manager employs a Thai supervisor and gives him a job, then the supervisor is somehow in debt to that person. It is like taking a loan because the person in charge, the manager, puts trust in you. The supervisor somehow has the feeling (and psychological obligation) that he is now in debt and needs to perform well for the manager. The supervisor will look up to the manager and try his or her best to fulfil the targets and please the person who gave him or her the chance to work for the company, and maybe gave him a good salary in the end. That’s the psychology, and it’s called “Grengjai,” referring to bottom-up. “Baramee” comes from the top. “Baramee” means I’m higher in rank and status and superior to you. Therefore, you need to comply and comfort me. You are part of my team and must show me this. Basically, it’s like a creditor and a creditee. What I mean by that is that there is a certain kind of relationship between people, which is also reflected in leadership in Thailand. This is my honest perspective, I don’t like it, but it is a fact. Whatever role you have, whether MD or CEO, you cannot change the basic logic. You can try to break up certain kinds of possible negative interactions when, for instance, a superior suppresses the subordinate and is too demanding. But addressing this isn’t easy. To understand all this, you must be very close to the organisation and familiarise yourself with what is happening. For this, you need to have special relationships with some people in your team who are open towards you and who you can ask, “Look, Mr. Terapon,” for example, “Could you please let me know what is going on here? I don’t get the real picture. I believe something might go wrong or something is not how we would like to have it in our mixed corporate culture.” Having some players within your team that you are close to is important. They must trust you, and you can trust them. Some alliances in your inner circle in the company will help you get the real picture of what’s really going on. SH: Will a foreigner, you are a foreigner, ever be able to understand the cultural concept 100-%, such as the “Baramee” or “Grengjai” idea of relationship-building? BW: No. We need to live with gaps, and as I mentioned before, almost every day or week, you will have a couple of occasions where you say, “Oh, this is new to me; I did not see this coming” or “I don’t understand it.” In certain situations, you will say, “I don’t understand why that person reacted in that way. I thought it was crystal clear and it was properly communicated, and then the person does the complete opposite.” In my case, in Asia, you must cope with these things abroad. You must not overreact. You have to keep it inside. When you do not understand the things around you, you should step back for a moment. Maybe you lost money, or maybe some investment went wrong. You will need to live with that. You definitely need to counter-steer, but you are still a foreigner. Even after living here for 14 years, I still must live with those thresholds and these gaps. Either you can cope with that or not. You may tell yourself, “I will try my best tomorrow again.” You will take what you learn, but there will still 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter 23 <?page no="24"?> be situations where you think, “These things are completely not understandable to us.” Therefore, you need to have the ability to take things in your stride and not overreact towards the organisation. It is also very important to talk to the person one-on-one on the side, but not in a rage or hot temper. Again, try to understand why things happen even when you might be boiling inside. You will still need to behave and communicate on a very proper level and then explain it again. You may need to explain things three days later. If things are not going in the right direction, you might have to change the organisation and potentially also take steps to move people or, in the worst case, even let somebody go. But this capability, I think, is very, very important because we are still foreigners, and we don’t understand the culture to that extent. SH: Bernd, I know you are married to a Thai woman. How does this local “link” help you? BW: My wife definitely helps me a lot. She’s Thai; she’s also in business. She has also worked for the Alpla Group for many years. Meanwhile, she’s in another business segment in cosmetics. She has been helping me throughout my career. We have been together for 18 years now. This is almost the whole duration of my stay here in Asia. She helped me a lot because we came together in the evenings and discussed topics that lingered above me or occupied me during the day. I asked her for her recommendations and perspectives because she understands things in a Thai context. This is what I meant by different psychologies, different kinds of behaviours, approaches, angles and perspectives. She also supports me in structuring my response, for instance, for the next day, approaching that person again, and then trying to clarify things. Having a partner with whom I can share things and vice versa has definitely been part of my success over the past years in Asia. Of course, I have tried to help her, too: She has been to Austria and other European countries many times, where she was involved in global projects and rollouts. I was, and I am her sparring partner. SH: You mentioned how important trust is in Asia. But how can we create trust with someone whose language and culture we do not 100-% understand? BW: In Asia, it’s very important that you’re authentic. You say what you think, do what you say, and do not change lanes as frequently. If today’s opinion is yellow, then tomorrow, my opinion should be yellow, too. And if the colour changes, I need to explain it properly to the person I am dealing with, the management team or whoever. We need to be authentic; we need to be true, and I think that’s one key success factor in terms of communication. The people will notice that and be able to trust you because they know that whatever I say, I will try to do. We all know the saying “walk-the-talk,” but this is particularly important in Asia. I try to be myself; I try to convey my values and direction, and if there is a change, I need to communicate it properly. I need to explain it and give them a “Why? ” That way, you are very open and transparent towards Asians and vice versa. They will also open up more and more over the time you work 24 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter <?page no="25"?> together. Also, towards you and they will understand you better and the other way around. Asians are, on average, much more reserved than Europeans in terms of business discussions. In Europe, we would stay very quiet regarding private topics or salaries. So here we are very rigid. Salaries are generally quite openly discussed in Asia, so that’s different. Between the peers, they talk, “I have this. You have this.” This will not happen in Europe, but in terms of communication, there is much more reservation for a Thai or Asian person at the beginning when you start to engage. Trust comes along with the process and the timeline you work on together. And then, if they understand you well, they will also open up and understand what we need, what we want and how we want things done in an area of responsibility. It will always be a mixture of working together. This is also where we must have this leeway to say, “We are in Asia, we are foreigners, we are sent here from Europe, we are not Asians, and we also need to accept things like they are in Thailand or Vietnam, because we will not change them.” We might be able to change specific small parameters in the processes or ways of communication. However, we cannot generally change their psychologies or the people themselves. The bottom line is that we are guests here. This is what we need to understand. Even if we are at the top of the hierarchy and even if we steer a big boat along the storms, we are guests in Asia. We need to make this clear to us every day, and we need to live with setbacks. SH: You need to trust your local people. How do you deal with that situation? BW: Handling employees is a journey. So, you hire a new person; they start, you get acquainted with each other, you have inevitable frictions at the beginning, and then you start understanding each other. In the beginning, you check much more, right? There is a specific task: You get data, you get an Excel spreadsheet or a PowerPoint, you get an evaluation of a particular project, and at the beginning, you check every detail. You walk the person through the deck. Slide by slide, you explain what needs to be done. You try to guide the person in a direction. “How would you love to have the data compiled? ” For example, or “What are the important factors to look at, and where are the correlations? ” So, you need to coach the people directly reporting to you. In the beginning, the coaching effort was very high, but it got less and less. Over time, you don’t need to check every column and every line anymore because you know this person understands what you want. You know that they are reliable. I have team members who have been with me for a long time, and I know I still need to check things for plausibility or completeness. With some others, they understand clearly what’s needed. Together, we went through the process of alignment and coaching, and you can take the data right away and send it to the CEO. You know that the data is diligently checked. This has a lot to do with experience. The ultimate goal is to have people who can run alone. But to reach that point, the effort is very high. I want to make the organisation understand 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter 25 <?page no="26"?> what is really needed, what is the focus, what is essential and what is relevant for specific topics. But you need to coach and guide them, and this requires a lot of energy. Aha! This is Interesting • Bernd emphasises the significance of communication in intercultural interaction. Effective leadership hinges on being a clear talker and a good listener. Paying attention to what the other person is trying to say is essential. We should put ourselves in their position to fully grasp their message. When something is not immediately apparent to us, we should not shy away from asking clarifying questions. But we should do so in a considerate way so that the person on the other side opens up. For him, creating a psychologically safe environment is the key to effective communication across cultures. • For many internationally operating firms, English is the primary language of busi‐ ness. At least in metropolitan areas, you can expect members of your management team to be proficient enough in English to communicate effectively. While English language use may suffice at the managerial level, the importance of proficiency in local languages increases at lower management levels. The more detailed and technical the discussions are, the more fluent one has to be in the local language. You need to ensure the right level of depth for the daily operations on the shop floor. • When abroad, it is, from time to time, really challenging to fully appreciate what is going on around us (Bernd mentions cultural concepts such as “Baramee” and “Grengjai”). Even if such ideas are utterly alien to us and might undermine professional conduct, we would be hard-pressed to change their basic local logic. Instead, he advises tackling them with sensitivity, adaptability, and dedication to learn. We should take our time to understand the values, customs and norms of the region where we work. A close and trusted friend who is well acquainted with local ways of doing things can help fill in the gaps and navigate cultural complexities. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are “culture bumps”? And how do they set intercultural sense-making processes in motion? • How does the intensity of such events (and our experiences with them) influence our intercultural journey? 26 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter <?page no="27"?> 2) Leadership in East Asia • Many companies have decided on English as their corporate lingua franca. But in Asia, English language skills vary greatly. What do you have to keep in mind in terms of ranks and technical topics? • What are the advantages and disadvantages of filling key positions with people who speak the headquarters’ language? • What is emotional intelligence, and why is it such a cherished asset in an Asian business context? • What are “Baramee” and “Grengjai” in a Thai context? How do they influence local management? Is there perhaps similar logic in other parts of Asia (should you already be working in Asia when reading this book in your country)? How do they differ? • What does Bernd possibly mean when he says, “We need to live with gaps.” And what are the repercussions of that for leadership positions in Asia? • Why is it important to have good emotion regulation skills under such circum‐ stances? • Bernd points out that “authenticity” is crucial in intercultural management, especially in an Asian context. What is authenticity (in your country), and what part can it play in shaping the outcomes of events? 2 Interview with Bernd Wachter 27 <?page no="29"?> 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes Sierk Horn (SH): Perhaps we start with a short bio-sketch of yourself, Markus, so that you can introduce yourself to my readers. Markus Thinnes (MT): My name is Markus Thinnes. I graduated in 1991 from Freie Universität Berlin and started working immediately after that at a German printing press manufacturer called Heidelberg Printing Presses. After four years, they sent me to Japan to be their technical and sales liaison with the headquarters. The main premise was that standard machinery would not require much support; however more and more customised machinery was sold to Japan. Therefore, it was necessary to explain and coordinate everything from the design of the press, all the way to the installation. And that was my first job in 1996 in Japan. Afterwards, I was hired by a supplier of Heidelberg, whose idea was to expand to Japan, support the existing customers, as well sell to the Japanese manufacturers of printing presses and related industries. I continued doing this for eight years, and in the end, I basically ran the Japanese organisation, which I set up as a kind of Asian headquarters. From there, I also served in Hong Kong, the Chinese market, and Korea. While Korea is very close technically and sales-wise to Japan and closely follows what the Japanese are doing, China was an upcoming market at the time. So, we coordinated that from Japan because our Japanese customers’ sales channels were active in China, Southeast Asia and Korea. Then, in 2008, the Lehman crisis occurred. We decided to scale down Japan and concentrate more on China, where we also started producing for the Chinese market. Following that, I had my own company, staying in the same business area until 2019, when I went back to Switzerland or Europe in general. Nowadays, I run the business from here. Among others, I have become a board member in a small consulting company of 12 people. We make arrangements for business between Southeast Asia and Europe and the other way around. While I still concentrate on Japan, we have offices in Malaysia and Singapore. We call this an umbrella project because if a customer wants to deal with that country, he can also route it through our existing companies for the start before positioning himself in the market. SH: Clearly, you have plenty of experience in intercultural management. MT: Yes. The Japanese headquarters was basically the Asia hub. We had a lot of mixed teams in Asia anyway, both for installations and with the German side. We would end up installing something physically in China that we sold in Japan. We had German colleagues coming to China, while Chinese and Japanese colleagues worked there for one or two weeks to help us with the installation. We also did the same for Japan, so we called over Chinese colleagues in Japan to assist. Very often, it was a very mixed team. The most intriguing thing was that people always talked about the countries and how different Japan is from China and China from Germany. My biggest lesson was that there’s a big gap between Hong Kong Chinese, Singapore Chinese, and Beijing <?page no="30"?> Chinese. We learned that the Singaporeans could talk to the people from Hong Kong better than the Beijing people since they had also emigrated from somewhere in South China two generations ago. SH: What makes a competent, successful manager in Asia from your experiences? What are the key attributes people need to bring with them? MT: I believe the first aspect is in the teams. I am not thinking so much about cultural differences nor how to bridge them, but I am trying to establish a culture in this group. We had incidents, for example, where the Germans got very nervous when someone was late. If then a French engineer came in and said, “Sorry for being French.” Some people didn’t take it as funny. Therefore, I always try to establish a certain culture between the people. When everyone arrives, the first night is a get-together. The following day, there is a technical meeting to see who does what. For the customers who find this multicultural setup challenging, we have always tried to establish someone from their culture to function as a spokesman for the group to avoid all these misunderstandings. This includes avoiding bad English or incomplete English and half-understood items so that the communication remains clear. Then, the customer would always refer to that one person. If the spokesman couldn’t answer something, he could always ask his colleagues, but there wouldn’t be mixed messages or things getting lost in translation. In conclusion, the choice of language is important. Back then, most things were discussed in English. The big hurdle was when we had English or American people, to get them down to a simplified, maybe not as polite English, but one that stresses information the others could understand. Because to a Chinese, for example, relative sentences are very hard to understand. They all spoke English, but repeating the noun with each sentence and not using too many related phrases was essential. On the other side, we had the more polite ones, like Koreans and Japanese, that they would raise their hand and ask, “You didn’t understand? Ask, ask even if it takes time; it’s no problem, just ask again.” SH: From what I gather, there are two things or three things that stand out. First, you need to create a culture of trust. Second, you do this through communication. And third, communication is not so much about telling but about asking. Did I understand you correctly? MT: Absolutely, and this can be very frustrating. For instance, when you send a message and learn a day later, when you see what people do, they did not get it. All Europeans would say, “But why didn’t you ask? Why does he try to bridge them on his side by somehow doing it? ” That’s frustrating for Europeans who are used to asking and having clear sentences. To the Asian side, it’s very frustrating, too. They are being told things over and over again at a pace that they can’t follow. I think that, at least on the technical side, it is also important to write things down. Just write it down on a whiteboard or on paper because this also gives you time to think. For the Europeans there was always this expectation of how something works. And not understanding 30 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes <?page no="31"?> that would be difficult. There is also this misunderstanding that when Asians do not answer, it doesn’t mean that they don’t know it. They just don’t want to tell. So, very often, waiting is a good strategy. See what happens. Just wait. If you don’t understand, wait because you can follow when you see what people do. Observe a little bit and imagine that things can be very different. SH: Sure. How did you realise the differences in highand low-context communication, Markus? MT: The issue is about balance. The European side was clearly expecting something to happen, but the Asian side didn’t dare to ask. So, how do you balance that kind of mismatch between these two? This is important in China, in Japan, and also in Korea. I learned it only step by step; if you go through an expert and establish contact, a good emotional relationship can be formed between the Japanese side and that person. It is a little hard for the European person since he will be the main and trusted contact from now on. They will be there to ask anything, whatever stupid thing it might be. We had a trainer for machinery who often came over. He told us that when he comes to Japan, he’s always the most nervous, and he needs the most preparation because they will always listen, not say anything, write it down, and do exactly what he says. I could come back in five years, and if they have done a wrong setting, they will say, “No, you told us in 2015 that this value has to be 107.6.” He often returns to the hotel before he answers and verifies. Getting a response is very hard, but it becomes easier with a longer and more established relationship. Therefore, we always ensured that the turnover or rotation of people coming to Japan was kept as low as possible. And the same goes for China. SH: We tend to look at cross-cultural differences. What you’re saying is, actually, the opposite, isn’t it? Because it’s not so much about cross-cultural differences but rather about linking and using culture to build relationships. MT: Exactly. The culture should never be your enemy. It should never be in the centre. You should never have to think about it. For example, we had discussions in the headquarters concerning workshops. They stated that we should have workshops about German-Chinese cultural exchange for the China business. And I said, “Yeah, but who do you want to choose? ” I mean, how many workshops do we want to have? Are we considering Japanese-Chinese or Japanese-Hong-Kongese workshops soon? The potential combinations seem endless, don’t they? With 180 countries, that’s an exponential number of possible workshops. So, the answer had to be “no.” I would rather try not to let the cultural side be at the centre because if you really discuss it, it quickly becomes a “this is good, this is bad,” right? And culture is usually about people’s values. If you try to create a culture in your organisation based on certain values, then it seems a little insincere, right? I would always concentrate on the positive side, for example, on the Japanese side, and this organising is meticulous. From the English side, there is a clear emphasis on being technically very advanced. I mean, they are constantly experimenting and 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes 31 <?page no="32"?> striving for innovation, right? When it comes to production, for example, the Japanese would always focus on “delivery time.” In contrast, the Germans often observe that the Japanese always have the opportunity to speed up their procedures. Therefore, I always said, “I would like to have the American sales, English marketing, German designer, and the Japanese production manager. If you can bring this together, I think the team could be better than just one culture. That’s exactly what you have to show in the team. Together, we contribute many, many good things, right? SH: You described the importance of kick-off meetings. Is that the moment you tried to create this kind of culture? Who does what? Or when? MT: A little bit. At first, it’s about people having a better relationship with each other. The second is that they can see who can best contribute what. A Japanese, for example, will always be there and say, “Okay, tomorrow, we do this. The day after that, we do this.” For many Germans, that’s their first time seeing something like this. They will have much more of a rough planning. The Chinese won’t even bother because they know that in their country, you arrive at the site, and the electrician is late, or the parts have not come. Anything can happen. So, you might have to be more flexible. Having people on-site who can bridge the gap between customers in each culture is also very important. We must not let all these cultural differences get to the customer. The key person doesn’t have to be the oldest or the most genius or something like that. SH: Language plays an important role, then? So, you want somebody who speaks the mother tongue? MT: Ideally, it would be the same as the client. It can be very different. For example, people from Hong Kong and Singapore have a much easier time communicating than Chinese. But that is where I always insisted on writing it down. Because then the Chinese have a huge advantage; whatever dialect they can read, they can understand it. SH: Hold on for a second here. Because surely within the team consisting of the Chinese of the Hong Kongese and the German manager and somebody else, you know, there might be some hierarchical thinking involved. Suddenly, a junior would turn into the client’s key contact. How did you explain that to your team, Markus? MT: Very often, this comes naturally. Because if you say, “Okay, so who’s doing the team lead and who talks to the clients? This very often naturally corresponds to whoever speaks the client’s language fluently. Okay, I think it’s a little bit easier in Asia because when you come to a factory in China, you will not speak much English. Or in Japan you will not know much more than Japanese. It can be a little bit more difficult in Europe because they all understand since they are often used to multiple languages. But it’s not the same even in Europe when you see how France or England works. They have a very different way of communicating. There are also various ways of authority at play. A very senior person in Europe may not be a real veteran; indeed, age is not always very positively seen. In Asia, in 32 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes <?page no="33"?> most countries, the older one is, the more authority is usually attributed. Nobody will doubt the competence of a 70-year-old. And then there is time. This is a big issue in culture. How do people understand time, what is late, and what is fast? It’s very different. That is very often a reason for cultural misunderstanding—more than religion, for instance. And sometimes there are also funny things that come about space. For example, the Chinese wouldn’t tell us why they didn’t want to go to a certain hotel. We all stayed there. It’s a kind of an engineer’s hostel. And then I called the secretary of one of them. In a Chinese organisation, you very often have a kind of “Mama-san,” someone who can run the whole thing and relate to everyone. So, I called this Loretta and said, “Loretta, what’s wrong with them? I don’t get it.” Then it came out that they heard that in China, the people would sit together in the bath. And by no means did they want this. They were frightened. And, of course, in the past, when they were in China and came for an installation, they lived in nice hotels. It’s a little bit of a treat. Before we switched to the hostel, they lived in a hotel where they would stay rather privately. Then we changed that. We thought being all in one hostel was simple and not so expensive. As a result, we returned to the original approach and never did this again. But that is cultural learning. SH: Which inspires my next question, Markus. I know you are fluent in Japanese. But is there perhaps something else, culturally, that is important? MT: I think there’s both language and cultural sensitivity. I think one of the most frustrating points the first time you visit Japan is the slowness of most people. This is a little bit absurd, but it puts a lot of stress on foreigners. That someone in front of you in a little street stops his taxi, the person pays, they get out, they help the old lady, and they just don’t bother. And everybody has in mind, “The next time my mother comes, I want to treat her like this. So, this time, I wait; next time, someone else waits.” I believe this is the reason why many things are slow. In China, it’s often the opposite. They would often go, “Oh yeah, yeah, we can do, we can do, we can do, no problem.” On the other hand, in Germany, we tried to establish English as the company’s first language. In Japan, we tried to speak more English. The thing is, even in Germany or France, people speak to each other in English without the need for it. So there, it just doesn’t work. Our head of the company was Mr. Mehdorn. We had this meeting about what we were going to do for a certain country. In English, we, of course, addressed each other by first name, i.e. Hartmut and Markus, and so forth. And yet you meet him on the toilet, and in German, you would say, “After you, Mr. Mehdorn.” You can’t say Hartmut. Of course not. That is why the language is still important. But cultural sensitivity is not necessarily about understanding. It is sometimes about patience. Sometimes, you just have to wait and accept things. That’s it. Do not think too deeply about things. For example, the Japanese explain why things are as they are. And it’s not true at all. I mean, for example, why do they do the best microchips? 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes 33 <?page no="34"?> Because they were rice growers, right? You think? Yeah. Yeah. Because you must work together and be very meticulous? That is, of course, nonsense. On which side do you stand on the escalator? Why do you stand on the right in Osaka and on the left in Tokyo? In Osaka, there were so many samurais and long swords on the stairs. And you think, yeah, but Samurais had no escalator. But this realisation doesn’t trigger anything with the Japanese. I mean, sometimes a funny explanation is a nice thing, but it’s not always helpful. SH: What you’re saying is that we need to accept these kinds of differences without asking about them? MT: Yes, exactly. SH: And how do you deal with setbacks in Japan or, in general, abroad? Because at home, you have this kind of social network that can help you over these setbacks. MT: That’s what I just mentioned when I called the secretary in Hong Kong to find out what was wrong. This is a little bit of what you would do in Japan. My wife, for instance, worked in a school in Tokyo. And they had organisational problems in the building. So, things needed to be changed in the building. She asked her colleagues, “Why don’t you tell the building manager? ” And they replied, “No, no, no. He’s the manager; he should know himself. I’m not the one to tell him. He’s just a bad manager.” And you think to yourself, “Things can be very different here.” This can create setbacks. On the other hand, my wife always said that she was missing the Japanese solution, a solution-orientated approach, when we came back. She said, “In Japan, you can solve everything by talking and mentioning it.” And what do you do when you have setbacks? Very often, you have to find someone who knows it and helps you get what’s wrong because the person will not express it. I think that is the case in many cases. For example, for a company, when we send Japanese people or Chinese people to Germany, I always make sure that they have one person in the other organisation who’s a little bit like a godfather, like a mentor. One reason was that they often would not understand multiple things, which, in turn, would cause frustration. This way they had someone to talk to and could establish a certain trust. I believe that this might be the most important thing in cultural management. To get someone who is also by his nature a little bit more open and who can laugh about stupid things that happen or some setbacks, who can say, “Okay, yeah, we didn’t get that. So next time, we will do it differently.” On the other hand, it’s also a question of integration. When you try to build your own culture, it’s crucial not to always have too many new people. It’s very difficult when you always have three newcomers in a team of seven. You should try to keep a team together. We had maybe six or seven trainers in headquarters. But 90 % of the time, we got the same person. Because he would already know how the other person ticks. “He’s the calm guy. He’s the one who gets upset or frustrated easily. He’s a good welder. And so, so, yeah.” SH: Trust seems to be a crucial element here? 34 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes <?page no="35"?> MT: I think trust is the big thing. I mean, why would, for example, Japanese not tell you that something went wrong? Because they don’t trust you with that information. They expect that you would be upset. Build trust so that they tell you things and you then solve problems together, with the idea that next time we won’t make the same mistake. It’s a hard lesson for Japanese people because they often come from companies where mistakes are frowned upon. It’s a big thing. And, and they usually try to cover it up. In a Japanese organisation, it’s a big task of the lower ranks to cover up things and not to bother. And we often have the opposite; my door is open. And I always said, “Tell me why you did it like this? What was wrong? ” We know of failures in hindsight. Very often, the first idea was not the worst, and it just didn’t work out. Then, we will do it differently the next time. And we write it down. But getting to this point can be very different for different people. What I mean by open door is that even in a twoor 300-person company in Germany, you can usually go to the CEO’s secretary and say, “Can I talk to him? ” And she will say, “All right, three o’clock.” You can tell him something about a transport, something that went wrong, whatever. And that are big cultural differences. I always believe you must learn. You must try to set up or develop your own culture, especially concerning time because this creates a lot of stress for people. I know a lot of Germans who have a lot of stress from the slow pace of Japanese. To the Japanese, everything is a process. Everybody, everything needs its time. It’s like a set time. This thing needs seven minutes. It’s like a German beer, right? And I know many I know the opposite of Asians coming to Europe; they would order a beer they would bring everything else, but not the beer until you explain to them that the beer should take seven minutes. And they get like, what a bad service, right? It’s their cultural interpretation. The other side wants to make it proper and right, and he comes and turns the beer glass with a label for the customer. And that is usually where culture clashes. That is also the nice part of it because sometimes things just happen where you think, oh, no! He understood it like that, and she understood it like this. Another point in Japan is that there’s quite often friction between people, also between Japanese people, about not what someone said but what someone asked. “I didn’t want to be asked that! Of course, I didn’t answer! ” SH: Where does this come from? MT: Because I think some questions feel awkward for Japanese. He’s annoyed, right? It feels like someone is getting into your business or pushing you to have an answer to say something that you don’t want to say. It happens quite often. Cultural frustrations also happen inside the countries, not only between country cultures such as Germany and China. When you’re in Hamburg, for example, at Bosch, it’s a completely different story. And it’s very funny because you go to Bosch in Tokyo, you speak only Japanese. Then, you meet the management. And they all speak Swabian. The English is all this rusty German English. 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes 35 <?page no="36"?> SH: What makes a successful manager or leader? What are the key attributes that a person needs to have? MT: I would say he or she doesn’t have to be the most knowledgeable. He must be someone who can and who likes to deal with people, someone who can make the people contribute. And that is not necessarily the best technician. Also, that person should be flexible and patient and more importantly, he must be the most knowledgeable. Finally, that person should be someone who can get people together and who can reach targets. We don’t need specialists. No, the specialist should still be in the team, right? Aha! This is Interesting • Markus emphasises the importance of building a unified team culture rather than focusing on cultural differences and ways to bridge them. The moment cultural differences take up space, people will more or less automatically go into (unhelpful) comparison modes. For sure, intercultural leadership should be about creating an environment in which differences are respected and valued. However, shared goals and values bring teams together. • What people expect from interactions varies greatly across cultures. According to Markus, clear and straightforward communication styles signal respect for otherness and help bridge linguistic and cultural gaps. We should talk in such ways that we can ensure that messages are accurately understood and the potential for misunderstandings is minimised. Most importantly, we should consider how communication can foster positive and effective interactions. • We risk imposing our own cultural values through immediate reactions and rushed judgements. Misunderstandings and perhaps even conflict are the result of that. Markus reminds us that patience and observation are crucial elements of intercultural leadership. We should take our time to see the world through others’ eyes and try to learn what they want and need. Sensitivity to differences in interaction styles and a commitment to observing how things are done around us help us on our way to fostering a mindful work environment. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • According to Edward Hall, Different cultures perceive and utilise time and space differently. In what surprising ways do these aspects surface in intercultural leadership situations? • Why is “patience” such an important attribute in leadership across cultures? • Edward Schein advises us to talk less and listen more. In an Asian context, with what kind of questions should we be particularly careful? 36 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes <?page no="37"?> 2) Leadership in East Asia • What was Markus’ biggest lesson in the East Asian business context? • Are we perhaps focussing too much on cultural differences between Asia and Europe? What should we, according to Markus, pay rather attention to when team-building? • Language choice is important in Asia. How so? Discuss in terms of internal (team lead) and external (client) language use. • When speaking to Asian people in English, what should we be aware of ? • Why does Markus advise us to write things down when communicating with people from Asia? • What is one way of projecting authority in an East Asian context? • What does Markus mean when he says, “Cultural sensitivity is not necessarily about understanding”? • In Japan, many issues can be resolved through talking. How does this solution-ori‐ entated approach differ from the West? 3 Interview with Markus Thinnes 37 <?page no="39"?> 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher Sierk Horn (SH): Florian, thank you so much for taking the time today to do this interview. Who are you? What brought you to Japan? Florian Kohlbacher (FK): Sounds good, Sierk, and thanks for having me and reaching out; it’s great to reconnect. My name is Florian Kohlbacher. I’ve been in Japan for about 21 years now, on and off, for a long period of time. I first came to Japan as an exchange student almost 25 years ago. I spent one year at Kobe University in Western Japan, where I had the opportunity to learn the Japanese language and study about the Japanese economy and business. That was the starting point of numerous different activities in Japan. Nowadays, it all ends up to about 21 years. I started my career in the transportation industry; I worked in B2B marketing, in maybe not-so-exciting (comparatively speaking) product category of escalators for a Swiss company, and worked for them both in Europe and Japan. Then, I moved into academia. I also spent two years at Hitotsubashi University in Tokyo, doing my PhD research, and went into academia, almost eight years at the “German Think Tank,” the German Institute for Japanese Studies (DIJ) in Tokyo. Afterwards, I moved to China and spent a couple of years as a professor of marketing and innovation at the Chinese British Joint Venture University (Xi`an Jiaotong-Liverpool University) in Suzhou, near Shanghai. Then, I came back to Japan, headhunted by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), to lead a consulting business called the Economist Corporate Network in Japan and South Korea. There, I worked with several foreign and domestic companies in both markets. One of my key clients was a consumer goods company, which, at some point, gave me the opportunity to come in-house to work full-time for them. I guess in consulting, you would say, “Going client side.” So, in January 2020, just before the pandemic, I joined this company, which was the Japan business unit at that time, as head of strategy, strategic planning, and business intelligence. Then, we went through a large global reorganisation, and we went from 21 business units and regional headquarters down to nine operating units without regional headquarters. Now, we are the operating unit of Japan and South Korea. Overall, I’ve been leading the strategy function for four years until the end of last year, and I just moved into our operations function to take a newly created role called commercial transformation. Now, I look at how we use digital technology to change the way we interact with consumers, shoppers, and customers to ensure the future of our business here in Japan and Korea. SH: You seem to have plenty of opportunities to interact with Japanese and Korean colleagues. So, how big is your group? FK: On our company side, we have about 500 associates in Japan and 100 in South Korea. However, because of our franchise business model, we work very closely with our partners, five in Japan and one in South Korea. They purchase the input goods from us. With them, they produce the finished goods. They do the distribution, sales <?page no="40"?> and everything that comes with it. So, overall, that’s probably around 30,000 people in total in Japan and South Korea. SH: What is the main language you are using on an everyday basis, Florian? FK: As an international company, of course, the common language for all of us is English, especially if we combine Japan and South Korea. Having said that, it varies, right? Whether we work in Korea with Korean business partners, including our partners and customers, varies. Then the language will be Korean, which I don’t speak. In this case, I would have to use a translator. But in the local team in Korea, I think with one single exception: Everybody’s Korean and has Korean native language capabilities. And in Japan, it’s the same situation. English is spoken at the top with our major partner, but it’s mostly Japanese elsewhere since it’s a Japanese corporation. Inside our company, it’s the same; I think there are some expats at the top as well. Therefore, the common language is English also when interacting with our headquarters in the US or other operating units, for example. But when the working level teams get together amongst themselves, and there’s no non-Japanese speaker, they would, of course, use Japanese. Personally, I find it quite interesting because it changes. When I joined, it was the Japan business unit. Most meetings I attended were English at my level. But for example, when we had town halls or all-hand meetings, I was always asked to speak in Japanese and to get it translated into English, just like any other Japanese colleague. Then, we became Japan and South Korea. Everything changed to English. I even gave presentations in English at the town halls, and they were back-translated into Japanese. So, things changed, which was interesting. One reaction from Japanese associates was, “Oh, when we become Japan and Korea, will we be changed to English? ” Some people were quite worried about that. Others welcomed it. It was a mixed reaction at that time. Now that I have moved from a corporate staff function - Strategy - interacting a lot with the senior leadership, I have transferred to operations. Recently, my life has become a lot more Japanese-speaking because, in operations, you interact with a lot of local stakeholders. So, I speak a lot of Japanese again. It changes depending on your role and who you work with. It can change quite a bit. And, of course, you need to be flexible and fluent to speak and cater for both cultures and languages. SH: You’re in the position that you’re able to do these switches, aren’t you? FK: Yes, I think that’s highly critical. And that gave me the opportunity to join. I think the company was looking for bilingual people who can navigate in both languages seamlessly. SH: So clearly, you are fluent in Japanese. You have been teaching and working in Japan for many, many years. Is there something called cultural fluency, by which I mean something other than purely linguistic capabilities? FK: I think it’s a great question, and I believe it goes in two ways: One is that regardless of the language you use, you need cultural sensitivity and understanding. Even if you 40 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher <?page no="41"?> speak in English, you should maybe be speaking differently to accommodate cultural differences and vice versa. The other, I would say, is the language. It’s not simply, “OK, I speak English and Japanese, and then you just translate.” No. The atmosphere and how people interact changes when you move a conversation or meeting from English to Japanese. I believe language is just the reflection of the culture underlying it. It also allows it to come up more clearly and strongly. I have always found that interesting. It’s not just in our company; it was in my previous companies as well. In organisations that work with this, you can have a meeting in English with everybody because there are some English speakers. Then, basically, everybody is on the same level. It levels the playing field. English doesn’t distinguish so much who’s more senior or whatever. Therefore, we don’t have to think about it so much. The moment the English speakers leave and everybody’s just amongst Japanese speakers, the conversation continues. Suddenly, there are all kinds of hierarchies between, you know, “Senpai” and “Kōhai,” the staff and everything. Different behaviours emerge. And you can clearly see hierarchies that were almost invisible before when speaking English. There are still the same people in the room; it’s just that a few people left the room. Switching to another language shows you that two types of different worlds or cultures can exist in parallel in the same organisation. And I think it’s crucial to be aware of that. SH: You mentioned that hierarchies were almost invisible, even when speaking English. Does this mean you need to have this kind of ability to read between the lines so that these hierarchies of “Senpai” or “Kōhai” don’t disappear altogether? FK: Even if you speak English, German, or whatever language, you speak differently to your CEO than you would to your peer or team member. I think even then, we notice that there are some differences in terms of hierarchy. I guess we very often talk about cultural differences or “This or that is very Japanese.” But if you think a bit more, you will say, “Oh, actually, we have that in Germany. We have that in the UK. We have that in the US as well.” I believe it’s just the way it is pronounced; the degree to which it manifests itself tends to be stronger in Japanese than in another language. SH: OK, thank you for clarifying this for me, Florian. Of course, your company is hiring a lot of people from abroad but also locally. What makes a good manager in Japan? What stands out? FK: First of all, I would think we’re probably 98 per cent local Japanese. It’s just that the non-Japanese are more skewed towards the top. And there are different types of people who come. Some expats are sent from headquarters with a lot of experience. Because of that experience, they know how to deal with headquarters and so on. And that’s really important. Then there are subject matter experts who need to come since there’s a capability that we don’t have yet and that we want to build in Japan or Korea. So, we invite somebody to come temporarily to help with that. The third one is the development of talent. There sometimes is talent in other markets. They’re usually not 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher 41 <?page no="42"?> that senior, but we give them an opportunity because it’s a very unique operation with a very unique portfolio. There’s a lot to be learned about Japan. So, we bring them here temporarily. There are different reasons why people come from abroad. And only for some of them, it’s about being an effective manager or leader. So, what are we looking for? I assume the company has a general expectation regarding the values we espouse in the corporate culture we talk about. And I think it’s quite common now among several globally leading companies to talk about the growth mindset. I believe that’s the most important manifestation of that culture and the expectation to have such a growth mindset for people. I also think this is connected to the leadership style. And in my company, we usually talk about leaders rather than managers. So even our management committee got renamed “Leadership Team” instead because it’s not about managing people. It’s about leadership. I think that already tells a lot about the expectations. Generally speaking, I think to be successful in Japan or across cultures in general has a lot to do with cultural intelligence or awareness. You need to be aware that there will be differences, and they will have an impact. So watch out for those. Furthermore, you need to be ready to learn and to listen. I think the ability to listen a lot is super critical for communication. Often, people think it’s about communicating or sending out messages. But the receiving end of the communication, is sometimes even more important. And it’s underestimated, perhaps, how important the listening part is. Listening and understanding, rather than just sending one-way signals, is crucial. Even more so when you come to a new or different culture when you know that people sometimes might not fully understand why you say something, or they are used to doing things in a different way. It is very important to show understanding and curiosity to learn and understand these differences. SH: Could you explain the growth mindset a little bit more? FK: Certainly. A growth mindset means essentially two things. Number one is the belief that you can always improve yourself. You can change. You might sometimes have people who say, “I am who I am. This is my background. These are my genes. I cannot change.” But no, no, you can work on yourself. You can improve. We all want to improve as leaders - and as people. We can do that. And second, turn challenges into opportunities. Not just say deterministically, “Shō ga nai,” “I can’t do anything about it.” Every challenge can be an opportunity. That kind of thinking is equally crucial. SH: Returning to the attributes of successful leadership. Is the one you described Japan-specific? FK: I believe what I just described applies globally to the expectations of the company. And I think that works anywhere. But of course, to be successful in Japan, based on listening and learning, you must learn how to communicate differently in this cultural setting, including how to interpret non-communications. I always remember my boss saying, “Look, don’t underestimate this. People may not say anything, but 42 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher <?page no="43"?> they’re watching you closely.” It can be the same elsewhere as well, that they look at the executives and they might not want to say anything, but they’re watching very closely what you do. You communicate, even when you just walk around along the floor. “Do you look stressed? Are you smiling? Are you looking nervous or whatever? ” In short, you’re being observed. You need to be conscious. You’re communicating in many situations where you’re actually not planning or intending to communicate. But communication is everywhere. Sometimes, there’s a context, like you have a meeting, and you speak. And, of course, it’s your verbal communication. But sometimes it’s not a meeting. You walk down the hallway to another meeting room, and people just watch you walk past them. “Do you look at them? Do you say hello or something? ” It’s even these little things. Sometimes, people think they don’t matter, but actually, they do, and people also pick up some cues and signals there. When we talk about leadership and about getting things done, we mostly tend to talk about the “what” and the “how.” I.e. what are the things we should do and how we should do those things. But we talk too little about the “why.” Why should we be doing this? Why does this contribute to the long-term success of our business? Why is this good for me? Etc. To motivate people, understanding the why is very critical. What’s why vision, mission and values are so important when setting a strategy. As leaders we need to help people see the “reasons to believe.” The reasons to believe that our work is important and has a purpose - and the reasons to believe that what we are doing and how we are doing it is actually going to work and help us accomplish our goals and achieve our vision and mission. SH: You mentioned that you have a leadership team. You don’t talk about managers but leaders. Is leadership assigned to any kind of position or rank? Or can anybody be a leader in your experience? FK: That’s a wonderful question. We try to explain that to people: You do not have to be of a certain rank to be a leader. But this part of the world, including Japan, very strongly pronounces the idea of being a people leader, a line manager and having staff. Because we now have a very flat organisation, we must use a networked way of working, right? And when people say, “But I want to be a leader in the future,” I reply, “So what do you mean? Do you think even now you’re a leader? Just because you have a reporting line doesn’t mean that you’re a leader, right? That’s a line management.” But also, without line management, you can be a leader. You can inspire other people. You can work with other people. You have to influence. In fact, a lot of people I need to influence don’t report it to me. They are actually my boss and my boss’s boss, and people at the same level who are above my rank. I need to influence them. They, by definition, never report to me. But I need to lead them as well and inspire them. So, I think that’s vital. But sometimes, this is hard to understand for people or hard to believe. They think it’s the reporting line. But we don’t really believe the reporting line matters so much. When they say, “It’s important to me,” then we often say, “Well, no, it’s not about that. You need to be able to work together regardless of the reporting line. It’s a very different 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher 43 <?page no="44"?> thing from working together.” But I think it’s harder here because of the hierarchies we have in Japan and Korea. People are very focused on who’s more senior. “Who am I reporting to? ” “No, I’m not reporting to you. I’m reporting to this person; that’s why you can’t tell me anything.” That’s a non-starter. It’s more difficult here than it might be in the Western world, where it’s maybe a bit more common to be more flexible and less hierarchical. SH: I would like to come back to this idea of more asking and less telling. Does this, in your opinion, come with showing weaknesses? FK: Absolutely. In this concept of the growth mindset, our philosophy of leadership and corporate culture, it’s very important to show vulnerability as leaders. You need to build that trust, atmosphere, and relationship. It’s crucial to show that the leader doesn’t know everything. The leader can fail, and it’s absolutely OK. Let’s be honest about it. Going out there and telling stories about times when you failed and struggled when you had a difficult time. Of course, you have to manage because if you constantly only talk about the negative things, you can’t always complain, “Oh, I can’t handle this or that.” You have to be careful because you want to inspire people and not put even more pressure on them. So, you must be careful. But I think people want to see that leaders are also normal human beings. They have good and bad days. They have successes, and they have failures. If you embrace failures as learnings, take what you learn, improve, and move on, that’s fine. You will not be punished for this or anything like that. It is showing that this is OK. It also creates psychological safety among people so that they feel comfortable sharing, communicating, and doing things without fear of any negative consequences if something is not working out well. SH: Florian, I think trust is a major issue, as you mentioned. How do you create trust in Japanese and Korean environments, where you have these kinds of hierarchies and linguistic barriers (regardless of how long you have studied the language)? FK: First of all, I believe trust is a journey. It’s not something that happens overnight. It takes time. It requires you to have joint experiences. You have to go through things together. You have to work together. You have to spend time together for trust to be built. You cannot just do it. I also believe trust goes both ways, right? It includes showing that you have each other’s back. So, if something’s happening, I’m here to back you up and support you. And I’m also showing this, right? Not just saying it. Show me the proof that this is happening. One observation I have is that we are very conscious of what it takes to be a leader. We go out and try the best of the storytelling, saying it’s fine to fail and so on. But then people look very carefully. And then they say, “OK, here was a project. And this project was a failure, right? Was that OK or not? ” But then we said, “Oh, but afterwards, when the project failed, it got dissolved. People were moved to another department. Some of them then quit the company. They were not fired, of course not. But they may have just left the company. So, you’re telling us it’s fine to fail? ” 44 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher <?page no="45"?> But then I see this example. I think sometimes there’s a mismatch between the story you’re trying to tell and what people see. And sometimes, it’s really a true mismatch. And that’s bad, right? You need to fix it. But sometimes, it’s also a matter of how you interpret that. “What do you mean by failure or non-failure? ” If we say it’s fine to fail, and we test and learn, well, sometimes we need to celebrate the fact that we learned very quickly. Something doesn’t work? So, let’s stop it rather than continue. But many people, especially here, interpret this as, “No, if you say it’s fine to fail, we can just continue this thing forever, right? But that’s actually not what we mean. Sometimes, this intent gets lost in translation. Because when we say it’s fine to fail, it’s OK, it’s fine to fail. Then, you take what you learn, and we will move you to another project. But people sometimes here feel this was a failure because they were forced to discontinue the project. There’s a different interpretation of the word failure or non-failure, right? And that can then create a lack of trust because they say, “Well, you said something different. And people will not tell you in your face, right? They will not usually say that openly.” Therefore, you need to find people who can help you be your eyes and ears. Because if you’re at a certain level of seniority, people will not easily give you feedback. The more senior you are, the more difficult it is to receive feedback and honest opinions. You depend on an engagement survey or somebody else talking to people and getting some input without mentioning names but aggregate that feedback. It can be HR, or it can be other team members. They’ll say, “You know, Florian, I have to tell you that the team thinks this wasn’t very good like this,” or they feel that this wasn’t consistent. Because I think being consistent is super important for establishing trust. SH: How do you deal with setbacks when you’re abroad? Because these are part and parcel of the job. And that puts you particularly on the spot as a foreigner. FK: I think it’s a great question. I mean, for me, obviously, Japan is now home. So, it’s a bit different. But I know what you mean. I think it’s about having somebody who supports you, who has your back. You will have a setback, whatever it is that happened. And there’s somebody else there to support you, to maybe protect you, to encourage you that say, “OK, unfortunately, this didn’t work out, right? But that’s OK. Let’s reflect. What are the learnings? What have you learned? What will you do differently next time? How can we support you better next time? ” Again, as a leader, the question is, “What can I do to help you? So, let’s talk about what we learned. Next time, what kind of support do you need from me to make sure to enable your success? ” We talk a lot about performance enablement, for example. That’s the role of the leader. A lot of the job of a leader is to remove barriers, empower people to do what they need to do, and say, “If there’s anything that gets in your way, then come to me, and I will make sure we remove those barriers.” And then showing that. So, if there’s a setback, say, “OK, but we’re here to help next time to make it work.” If you’re just left by yourself, which is a consequence of not having the right level of network, perhaps, then it’s very difficult to deal with those setbacks, I think. 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher 45 <?page no="46"?> SH: You need to have somebody still on the ground that tells you, “Well, colleague XY said, when he told you this, this is actually what he meant.” That kind of cultural translation. Is it important, you know, to have somebody on the ground to help you? FK: Absolutely. I mean, you can never know the whole truth. And there’s not even such a thing as a fully objective truth, right? Because of different perceptions. But I think it’s vital that it’s almost like 360-degree feedback, right? In a sense, you need to have more than one opinion. One person tells you that, but who knows what the other people think? And this person, he or she may say, “Oh, everybody else thinks this way.” But is that true or not? I think you always need multiple perspectives. Feedback should never come only from one person because sometimes somebody comes and tells you one thing. But depending on how important it is, it may also be good to seek input from others to ensure you get the full picture to the degree possible, right? To then make a decision. Because otherwise, there’s the risk that somebody is trying to influence you or, in the worst case, manipulate you. And if you respond too strongly to just one person’s feedback, other people may then not appreciate how you act on it because it doesn’t apply to them. You have to be very, very careful. It’s quite tempting as a leader when someone comes and tells a compelling story about what is not working and what needs to be changed. SH: What would your suggestion look like if you were talking to a student who just graduated? What should he or she be doing to get to the point of intercultural competence that you have? FK: The most important thing is to communicate! Interact with people! If you do not interact, talk, and listen to other people, you isolate yourself and rob yourself of the opportunity to learn. Be proactive. Especially in the hierarchical culture we have here in Japan, one can be quite shy. “Can I speak? Can I not speak? ” But do not worry too much! Without action, you will never have a result. You will not receive feedback. Do not be afraid. The worst thing that can happen is to be too passive. Because then you cannot learn anything. Aha! This is Interesting • Culture and language are intimately intertwined. Florian finds that language use can change the dynamics of meetings. When switching from English to the local language, different behaviours follow, and invisible hierarchies all of a sudden emerge. So, even if firms introduce English as a subsidiary’s working language, cultural differences do not go away. Indeed, he makes us aware that two (or more) types of different worlds or cultures can live in parallel in the same organisation. And they will come to the fore with depending on which language we use. • A growth mindset, i.e. the belief that we as persons can change and improve through effort and perseverance, matters greatly when dealing with cultural differences. By establishing that abilities and talents are not written in stone, we can rid ourselves of notions of fixed traits, including cultural stereotypes. We 46 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher <?page no="47"?> become future-oriented. Such a mindset potentially makes everyone a leader who is responsible for handling the dynamic nature of intercultural interactions. It challenges us to turn to cultural differences as opportunities for learning and innovation, promoting working environments as level playing fields. • We should be proactive in communicating and interacting with others. Cultural immersion most likely leads to richer experiences. Florian reminds us that passivity may lead to social isolation when abroad or with people of different cultural backgrounds. We risk forfeiting the chances of personal and professional growth. Intercultural interaction can be a special kind of teacher: It forces us to be more open-minded and adaptable in unfamiliar situations. Although daunting at first, we should challenge ourselves to step out of our comfort zone to make the most of the opportunity to learn about different ways of doing things and, by extension, develop intercultural competence. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • Corporate cultures set benchmarks for how reference groups form and behave. What are reference groups? And how could they provide orientation for intercul‐ tural interaction? 2) Leadership in East Asia • Why would local Asian staff be worried about introducing English as a corporate lingua franca? • In Japan, the terms “Senpai” ( 先輩 ) and “Kōhai” ( 後輩 ) are used to describe relationships (and, by extension, hierarchies). In what ways does the emphasis on seniority, mentorship, and mutual support influence local communication? • What were the surprising effects of seamlessly switching from English to Japanese (and back) for Florian? Does the use of the English language gloss over cultural differences? • Let’s assume that language reflects culture. What are the implications for compa‐ nies operating in and with multilingual realities? • Why is listening and understanding, rather than talking, so crucial in Asian business? • Shō ga nai” ( しょうがない ) reflects, to some degree, Buddhist and Shintoist worldviews of impermanence, karma and fate. There are things simply outside one’s control. Under these circumstances, do you think it is easy to establish a “growth mindset”? 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher 47 <?page no="48"?> • What does Florian refer to when he talks about “non-communication”? Why does he advise paying particular attention to it when operating in an Asian business context? • What is psychological safety? And why is fostering it so important in Asian leadership contexts? • In Hofstede’s terminology, Japan is often considered a high power distance society. Clear distinctions between levels of authority and status are deeply ingrained in its business culture. What are the challenges for organisations that cherish flat hierarchies? • Evidence-based practices (“go and see for yourself ”) are important management principles in Japan. How can “showing proof “ (i.e. direct observations) help to build trust? • Why are feedback systems indispensable for leaders in Asian business contexts? • Asian environments can be daunting for some. Why shouldn’t we be afraid to make mistakes? 48 4 Interview with Florian Kohlbacher <?page no="49"?> 5 Interview with Dirk Weber Sierk Horn (SH): Dirk, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Perhaps we should start this interview with a short introduction. Dirk Weber (DW): Yeah, sure. Prior to my academic career in 2020, I spent over 20 years working in the industry. For around 15 years, I was with a DAX group, which is quite popular in the technology business. Before that, I worked in mid-sized companies and service businesses. These were already companies that had global businesses. So, I had contact with customers from different regions. When I worked at the DAX group, I was in charge of the procurement and supply chain departments, which were not only in Germany but around the world, with a focus on China and the US. I managed teams worldwide, constantly adapting as organisations evolved. Therefore, I had to travel there to speak with my team members. In addition, I had global suppliers internationally, for instance, in China and India, since I was responsible for procurement. Hence, I also had to travel to the suppliers for negotiations and look at their production sites. SH: So I gather you have plenty of experience communicating across cultures. In your experience, what is most important for intercultural communication or communication across cultures? DW: Well, I think there are lots of points. In my perspective, having a certain level of experience is good. If you only worked in a certain country and then are faced with difficult negotiations or discussions, it’s more of a challenge than if you are used to that. So this is the first thing, of course. And there are different ways to get this experience. I never went abroad with my family. I had the chance, but we never did it. But as I already mentioned, I went abroad a lot for many years due to business trips. So, I believe that such experience and international exposure are important. The other aspect is to have a certain level of openness and respect towards different cultures and people. Let’s take a step-by-step approach to address these individuals. That was something I always experienced when I went to a new country for the first time. I tried step-by-step to be a bit cautious at the very beginning, and then learn how they speak, where they speak, what the background is, and so on. That is the second point I would say. Having a certain level of openness and being curious about what is coming. Furthermore, a third point is to navigate somewhat uncertain situations. You cannot plan everything, especially if it’s your first or second time talking to people from other countries. But If you do it every day, then it becomes common business. Now, I’m just talking about the initial steps and so on. And, of course, having a little bit of background knowledge of the country, right? To know what is important and a little bit about the current topics as well as the roadblocks. For example, if you are in the Middle East, then it’s probably not the best thing to start discussions with topics of religion. Because <?page no="50"?> you never know the opinion your partner might have. So these are three points that helped me on my journey through those countries. SH: Thank you, Dirk. Just to summarise, you talked about experience, openness, flexibility, and curiosity. You also mentioned the ability to navigate through uncer‐ tainty effectively. And I quite like your point about understanding other countries’ backgrounds. So, what kind of background would you look for when you read up and prepare for another culture? DW: Apart from the business points, which typically are very specific, right? Where you prepare yourself on the topics that you plan to do there with your partners or suppliers. I think it’s quite important that you are aware of the current topics in this country. For example, again, if you go to the Middle East and you are in Saudi Arabia, it’s good to know aspects such as the role of women in this country. And this changes, right? For example, four years ago, when you were in Saudi Arabia, you would never see a woman in the office. Now, it’s quite common. They drive taxis and so on. So this is something that you need to know. And also how you should behave if, for example, you have meetings with women. How do you do this? What’s the common practice, right? If you look at China, for instance, look at the impact of the coronavirus and the market situation. You could have a look at the rental situation of families and so on. This is good to know. If you go to these countries, of course, you cannot be an expert on everything. But sometimes, it starts with small talk. And then it’s good if you know something. And this can sometimes break the ice, which is important during these discussions, right? SH: If you go abroad, you talk about China and the U.S. in particular. But you’ve also been dealing with people of other different cultural backgrounds. What languages did you use to communicate with these partners? DW: Well, back in the day, my French was better than my English. My English is not very good, but I was able to negotiate. Even in France, despite my past experience, my French is better than my English. I negotiated in English because it provided no advantage to either side. Second, I learned about special terms, like technology terms. I knew them by heart in English, but I didn’t know them in French. And then, of course, everyone is used to speaking English. Even if you go to France, there are people from abroad. So, they typically speak English. They have English as the corporate language because so many people can’t speak French. And then, if I would make small talk, I took out my French from time to time. They were very surprised that I can also speak French. Sometimes, they weren’t surprised because they understood that I understood their small talk or whatever they talked about in between. But in general, it’s always English. I spend all my day in English. If you are good at English, then that’s sufficient. Of course, it’s good if you have another language to speak with. But in business, I was always okay with English. 50 5 Interview with Dirk Weber <?page no="51"?> SH: I’m really curious because you said you had set up teams to deal with Chinese clients, for instance. Did you look at some people who would speak Chinese, or would English have been enough? DW: Well, typically within my organisation, if it was an employee out of my department, it was a precondition that even the Chinese people could speak English. Normally, they can because if they are in global companies, they can speak English. They are very good at learning languages, plus they always speak Chinese. With their Chinese colleagues, they spoke Chinese, which is okay. But it was a precondition that they could at least speak English, sometimes also German, because they studied, for example, German. They were dual bachelors and so on. So typically, they also could speak a little bit of German. If I were looking for business partners, especially suppliers in China, they would have at least one person who could speak English fluently because they know that without that person, they would not be able to do business, especially not with international companies. They just needed it. And sometimes, it was just one person. And he was the one. He was the entrance point. He translated everything. So this was always very, very important. All the others were typically not able to speak English, especially if we look at mid-sized small companies and not in the big areas like the Pearl River Delta or Shanghai. Of course, nearly everyone can speak English. But if you go east and so on, then they were, at that time, those people who could not speak English. In other countries, it’s different, right? If you look, for example, in Saudi Arabia or the Middle East in general, the people I met there typically studied abroad. So, due to the universities, most of them speak English, at least at my level. SH: Apart from linguistic fluency, Dirk, is there also something we could call cultural fluency, something outside communication and language skills that still a successful leader should have? DW: Yeah, perhaps this is a little bit what I meant at the very beginning. Being open and curious, perhaps it’s the wrong word, but being a little bit careful at the very beginning. Understanding what are crucial points? How do they behave? How do they act? How is the hierarchy, for example? This is important to understand because, typically, it’s different in other countries and how they interact, right? Typically, they do not interact within the hierarchy like we do or the Americans do. And this is very much related to how we can speak to them and how the things said can be handled. For example, in which dimension do they have an allowance, which they will have to discuss internally? Understanding all that is very important. SH: What did your company do at the time, or what did you do when hiring people? What would you be looking for if you knew this person is going to work with people from different cultures? DW: Of course, it depends on the position. First, you have a profile indicating the criteria one is typically looking for. For example, when we are talking about a person who has to travel internationally, they need to have a certain background, right? Usually, you can already see that in the CV. Having specific experiences, studying 5 Interview with Dirk Weber 51 <?page no="52"?> abroad, or work experience. So that is the first thing, right? This is not the first time that they have done this. You can also look at potentials. Then perhaps it’s enough just to have a person with international study experience but without work experience. But he still shows that he is interested and brings the basic language skills. I believe having language skills is important, but compared to all the other factors, it’s not the most important one. It’s impressive if someone speaks five languages, but what’s more important is their openness, experience, and willingness to engage and understand what is needed in any situation. This is more important. Depending on the situation, one’s track record will show if it’s the right person. We also discussed what we did in the interviews and assessments where they can show how they interact in difficult situations with strangers. To see how they interact with things that are not typically in their culture. SH: Now, going back to the three main aspects of intercultural communication, are you also checking for issues such as curiosity? DW: Yeah, you can call this curiosity, but of course, curiosity can also be about asking and being very curious, right? This can also backfire in certain cultures, such as the Middle East. If you do this, then you get like that. And this happens within one minute, and then everything is gone, right? In this situation, you don’t have a second chance. That’s why it’s crucial to understand that my personal experience has shown the importance of not rushing, especially at the beginning, and taking a more cautious approach initially. I typically see this behaviour in people who are successful. In the very beginning, they are a little bit careful. I’m just trying to understand the situation, right? If you are in situations where you do not know the country or the people, or perhaps even if you know the country but do not know the company and its background. So this is something that you have at your fingertips, right? Of course, you can look at CVs and so on. But this is something which you really experience in personal talks. In my opinion, while people need to demonstrate their qualifications and track record, it is even more crucial to see how they interact in various situations based on that background. This is something that you can test and what you can make up your mind if you do this. Of course, there are different methodologies for looking into that. SH: I believe that the fundamental glue of intercultural communication is trust. We need to develop some form of trust in the other person, particularly in business. How did you establish trust with your team members and business partners? DW: I agree 100 per cent. But trust is not something you can just install like that, right? Especially if you don’t know the person, you don’t have trust. Therefore, I said being a little bit careful at the very beginning is good because there is no trust at this point, or at least not very much. I’m currently looking at situations where you do not know the person much. If you worked together for years, you probably have trust, right? You do not need to build it up. And your question now is how you can build up trust. 52 5 Interview with Dirk Weber <?page no="53"?> Well, in my opinion, there are different things. First, if you are there in the country not only once but several times and you take your time, then that’s already an investment. Because it takes your time and money to be there. So, this is already a first step into the region of trust because it’s an investment. I talk about business. The more you invest in both parties, the more trust there will probably be because the dependency between the people is getting higher. So, this is the first step. It’s also very important to stick to what you are saying. And these are small things at the very, very beginning. Over time, they typically become bigger issues. I had a lot of situations where it was important that you stick to what you said. This is another important point in building trust. The third point is also related to being open and clear about what you mean and what you are targeting. Something that is not always easy because, in different cultures, you do this in different ways. Especially in Germany or in some parts of Europe, you do this very openly and directly. It’s already different in France. If you go to other regions, it’s always different. Nevertheless, it must be known what you think or in which direction you want to go with that. That is something you have to find out. What is the best way to reach this target while considering the specialities of the cultures? This is not always easy, but it is important. Because if you do not do this, you can get into difficult situations. You might encounter situations where one person is thinking one way, and another is thinking differently, resulting in a lack of understanding. Therefore, clarity is important. SH: Let’s change the perspective. How do you build trust if you meet someone from another culture, such as a business partner in China or the United States? DW: Well, again, I think this does not come from one minute to the other. It’s a process that goes over time. What helped me in the past was that if you do not really know the person, you try to find topics beyond business to talk about. The business topics will be tackled later. Is it the weather? Is it the traffic? Is it infrastructure? We can talk about Germany, for example. Most of them were in Germany. So you need to find something where you can come in contact with them. This helped me all the time because then you find something in common. And if you then switch back to business, things already go a little bit better. So don’t just go to business and immediately start targeting business. It takes a little bit more time. But it helps significantly because you can rely on it in crucial situations. It helps you if you go to dinner somewhere; you have something to talk about. It was also always fun because you would always learn something. SH: What would you advise our young students? DW: First of all, go abroad. If you have the chance, do so during your studies. Do not only study abroad; work abroad and use every opportunity to do so. From here, it’s not a big step. You are already in the game if you go to a global company. There is no global company where you will not be in contact with international partners. Typically, if you climb up the ladder, there comes a certain point in time. If you’re interested, they will ask you to go abroad somewhere. And if you want to do this, you have the possibilities. But start early. 5 Interview with Dirk Weber 53 <?page no="54"?> Aha! This is Interesting • Sound background knowledge about history, religion, media, geography, and so forth is an important asset for intercultural leaders. It is particularly important for developing local business competence because it offers more profound insights into the complex dynamics of a society, including regional and subnational peculiarities. Such knowledge helps gain a deeper understanding of intercultural differences, particularly in terms of how values and norms shape the behaviour of individuals and organisations. We can avoid misunderstandings or taboos and, thus, establish respectful, culturally sensitive communication. • You never have a second chance to make a first impression. This is also true for intercultural encounters. Here, the beginning of a meeting is particularly critical as it can set the tone for trustful and respectful interactions or lead to strings of misunderstandings. Besides demonstrating that we value and respect others, Dirk advises us not to rush things. When we do not know the country, the company or the people, we should take a cautious approach. We should sound out unspoken rules surrounding formality and familiarity and adjust our communication style accordingly. • In intercultural settings, finding something we have in common is helpful. Focusing on things that we share or are familiar with (e.g., interests, hobbies, experiences) is a very good step in creating rapport. Such common ground eases tensions surrounding cultural differences because we can see others at a more human level; the realisation that we share emotions, motivations, and vulnerabilities establishes a good basis for smoother communication and collaboration. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • The GHEM framework suggests that region-specific knowledge is important for developing a deeper understanding of other cultures. What does GHEM stand for, and how does it help people relate and connect with others? 2) Leadership in East Asia • Why is it important to not only study an Asian language but also learn about a country’s social, political, economic and cultural perspectives? • Can you expect business partners to speak English, even outside metropolitan areas such as the Pearl River Delta or Shanghai? • Dirk suggests that openness, experience, and willingness to engage and understand what is needed in any situation trumps foreign language skills. Do you agree with this in an Asian business context? 54 5 Interview with Dirk Weber <?page no="55"?> • Why is it important to travel to meet business contacts in person (even when we could use virtual platforms such as Zoom or Teams)? 5 Interview with Dirk Weber 55 <?page no="57"?> 6 Interview with Andrew Staples Sierk Horn (SH): Andrew, thank you for your time today and for doing this interview with me. Before we start talking about intercultural communication, my readers would certainly like to know who you are. Andrew Staples (AS): Sure, so let me start with a quick history. I’m from the Southwest of England; Bath is my hometown. In the beginning, I came to Asia as a backpacker during my gap year between high school and university. In 1988, I travelled to Hong Kong and stayed there for a few months. After that, I went to university. I returned to Asia on the “JET programme,” Japan Exchange and Teaching Programme, to Fukuoka Prefecture, which is in the south of Japan, in 1996. For a couple of years, I taught English in a high school, and for a further year, I coordinated the programme from the prefectural head office in Fukuoka. Afterwards, I returned to the UK. I earned my master’s degree in East Asian business and stayed on to do a PhD broadly in international political economy. As part of that, I received a “Monbusho scholarship” and a Ministry of Education and Science scholarship in Tokyo for a year and a half. I came back to Sheffield, where I completed my PhD. There, I was a lecturer for a couple of years in Japanese economy and business before returning to Japan to take up a teaching post in business and economics at a university in Osaka. Subsequently, I joined Doshisha University in Kyoto for four years as they established their business school, and I helped establish the global MBA programme. Afterwards, I changed my career and joined the Economist Group in Tokyo for three years as the director of the Economist Corporate Network, this is a sort of briefing advisory networking service for C-suite from the Economist Group. Then, I relocated to Singapore to be the Southeast Asia director and became the global editorial director. Around June 2020, during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, I jumped out of The Economist Group and joined a private foundation as the inaugural director of research and outreach. While it was a fantastic experience and I continue to be involved as an advisor, I think I missed working with a team. Around the same time, The Economist Group went through quite a major restructure and—long story short—I rejoined the business as the head of policy and insights for Asia-Pacific in 2021. In 2023, I became the global editorial director for initiatives and alliances. These are some of the bigger programmes we have while continuing as the head of policy and insights for Asia-Pacific. Finally, the Economist Impact is the part of the Economist Group that does custom research, thought leadership and engagement. SH: Thank you, Andrew, for this wonderful introduction. So surely you have plenty of experience working across cultures and working, including in Asia. What makes intercultural leadership successful in Asia? AS: Do we need leaders? Yes, for sure. Here are some of my observations. In my opinion, curiosity and empathy are critical sorts of sense to have. In the Economist Group, <?page no="58"?> we talk about the globally curious, the people who are interested in what’s going on, and a sort of microcosm of that, for me and my careers, being very interested in what’s going on in Asia, broadly defined, Japan specifically, the last eight years or so in Southeast Asia. As you know, in such a diverse region, stages of development, political and economic systems, it can be very challenging to thrive within that environment and not only navigate. For most of my time, the Economist Group has been working with C-suite, which are country heads or regional heads from multinationals who are headquartered outside of the region. Predominantly, there are challenges in leading and managing successfully people from different cultures and backgrounds. And you’re not going to do that by simply bringing your variety of values and ways of working from your home country. You need to understand how to adapt and learn. I believe the root of everything lies in having curiosity about the region you’re working in and the people you’re interacting with. SH: Can we talk a little bit more about curiosity? Because that seems to be such an important aspect here. AS: Our knowledge about people’s backgrounds should include societal and historical context. If you want to build relationships with people, whether that’s people who report to you, people that you’re reporting to, or clients at various levels of seniority, it is important to go beyond the transactional and communicate that you’re interested in them, in the countries they represent, the societies and histories they’re coming from. This is a good way of building some rapport, not necessarily for any commercial ends, but so that the relationship can get off on a good foot, and you can build from there. Currently, my team consists of people from India, Malaysia, China, Japan, Australia, and other countries. It would be a case of asking them about their backgrounds, about what’s going on there, and keeping an eye on the news. I saw this event in Delhi. Are you involved in this? Whatever it might be. But anyway, those types of finding out about your interlocutor and where they’re coming from, you can never do any harm. SH: Thank you, Andrew. You mentioned empathy and curiosity, that you’re able to drive in this kind of new environment. What role does language or communication play? AS: Predominantly, everything I do is in English. I mentioned that they are sort of very multicultural teams, and English is the common language. My experience in Japan is different; I have never cracked the Japanese language, although I have some degree of cultural understanding. Let me sort of break those out: the English-speaking business environment and the Japanese environment. As we know, communication goes well beyond just language, which is also a critical point in Japan. The expression of the ability to read the air and to sense how to behave before you’ve even muttered your name or anything like this is crucially important. Maybe less so in places like Singapore, where English is very clearly the language of communication and business. In Japan, non-verbal communication is very important, as well as how you hold yourself and act, whether in a business setting, in a restaurant, or whatever it might be. This is 58 6 Interview with Andrew Staples <?page no="59"?> probably a little bit less important in Singapore and Hong Kong. But still, you get points if you are also picking up on some of the local practices. And think about what you’re communicating to the other people that you’re engaging with. SH: In terms of communication, you talked about presenting your ideas clearly and succinctly and so forth, but what about listening skills, Andrew? Is listening an important aspect for you? AS: I think going back to that sort of reading the air and the curiosity, listening is a critical skill. What’s not being said is sometimes more important than actually what is being said. In some cultures, it’s a bit of a cliche to say that it is difficult to say no and the sort of concept of face and so on. So, being able to understand what people are trying to say, even if they’re not saying it directly, is crucial. As mentioned before, sort of drawing on that curiosity, the listening, the posing, the follow-up questions, they’re trying to dig deeper into the real issue. It can go a long way, as well. SH: You speak some Japanese and English. Do you speak any other languages? AS: Unfortunately, not. Maybe a little bit of Singlish. SH: Singlish, okay. But you are travelling around Southeast Asia. What do you think? Would it be important to speak some Malay, for instance, Indonesian or whatever tongue is locally spoken? AS: To be honest, not in my experience; I’m representing our brand, we’re UK headquartered and so on. Of course, you will find people with local language skills and, more broadly, a much deeper understanding of the environment who have built successful roles for themselves because of that understanding of the business environment and the cultural or societal environment as well. Very often, I’ll be in other places in Southeast Asia, and an appreciation and curiosity of what’s going on in Indonesia, Vietnam and Malaysia can help build a bit of rapport and a relationship from which you can build. Would Thai, Vietnamese and Malay language skills have helped me? Yeah, certainly, maybe that would have helped me get an extra deal or solve a problem more quickly, but have they been crucial? Not at all. I would say that’s a little bit different in Japan. Of course, I feel somewhat handicapped in Japan because I don’t have that level of business language fluency. And I would think that I could do much better in Japan. SH: Interesting that you say this, that it’s less important in countries in Southeast Asia, but crucially important, perhaps more important in Japan for whatever reason… AS: The type of people that I’m interacting with in Southeast Asia, a lot of them would have been educated overseas in English language environments. It’s sort of common that there’s a whole scene in Japan of people who have had that experience working overseas. But the presumption that you could walk into a business meeting in Japan, and everything is in English is not necessarily there, where it is in most Southeast Asian environments to greater or lesser degrees. 6 Interview with Andrew Staples 59 <?page no="60"?> SH: Is there such a thing as cultural fluency, i.e., the ability to connect and create a rapport with people? AS: It’s an interesting question because if I look at my office here, there are 10 to 12 different nationalities, but we’re in Singapore in our corporate offices. Yes, contextual knowledge, emotional intelligence, self-awareness and so on. I mean, I’ve lived in Japan for many years as a student, an educator and in business, so it’s probably the country outside of my own that I know best. Would I say that I have cultural fluency? No, but I know some things that I should and should not do. If I go to Thailand, it’s just being aware that you are in another country, culture, or society, and sort of being alert to that, having your antennae out, and watching how other people behave. This would be a good first step, but some people have it, and others don’t. You can see people who are like a bull in a China shop, are uninterested, and don’t care. Perhaps they don’t have that curiosity. They might well be the wrong person for that job in that country. So, yes, I think there would be people there. Thinking about the sort of context of international business, you want people who want to go to that country, who are interested in meeting with people and understanding the business environment a little bit more deeply than somebody who would fly in for a couple of days and fly out again. SH: I don’t know your company structure, but is your company bringing people from abroad to Singapore? How does it work? AS: People move internally, but in general, we hire locally. Even though I’m a UK national, I was in Japan before, and I was hired in Japan as a local hire. People do move around, so we’ve had people move from our Delhi office to Singapore, from Singapore to New York, from London to Asia, from Asia to London, and so on. There is a flow internally, but we’re not the type of organisation that recruits people and then sends them overseas, as a Fortune 500 firm might be doing. SH: Sure, in terms of attributes or what people bring to the table, what are you looking for? Is intercultural competence an aspect you’d be looking for? AS: Yes, I think so. One of the ways we look at it, the Economist group, is the values that we have, and these are important to who we are. When recruiting people, we’re always talking about the culture we have, the values underpinning that culture within our organisation, how that fits in with who we are as the Economist group and our history and legacy established in 1843. We’ve got a long history, and we know that in a highly competitive market, this is business services, research and further. If you think about financial services, much higher salaries are offered, but people elect to work here because of our culture, which I say is underpinned by those values. So that’s important to us as we’re recruiting people. SH: Is this kind of commitment to these values of the Economist helpful in overcoming or dealing with these different cultures that come working for you? AS: I think so. It’s a common touchpoint for all of us. We have integrity, transparency, and all these types of values, and people join us because of the brand, the work that 60 6 Interview with Andrew Staples <?page no="61"?> we do, and where we sit within the market, not because they want to join an English company. I mean, I wouldn’t say that we’re an English company in that sense. SH: Some companies believe that to become a leader, you need to have a specific kind of rank or kind of position. But my impression is that the moment you throw in this kind of intercultural angle, these positions become less important because everybody can suddenly become a gatekeeper to a specific kind of culture. AS: Thinking about the part of the business I’m in now and the sort of diversity that we have in teams, you need to be an intercultural leader. You might be a mainland Chinese national, but you are managing people in India or Australia. So, yes, to some degree, and some people have that and for some people, it doesn’t necessarily come naturally to them as well. Going back to those values as a touchpoint for everybody. And again, thinking about leadership, helping, supporting and developing people is a crucial part of that. Suppose you’re going to be successful there. In that case, you need to understand where the people that you’re dealing with are coming from, what particular issues they might have or challenges, their language skills, and their background - whatever the issue might be, having an understanding of that sort of cultural context is going to be crucial to being a successful leader. Furthermore, having communication skills to be able to listen to people and all the things we’ve been talking about. SH: Andrew, is trust an important issue in your group? Or is building trust an important issue? AS: Absolutely. In my experience, that’s built around personal relationships and having an interest in the person you’re working with, helping them, supporting them, giving them development opportunities and letting them know you’re there to support them. But you are challenging them as well to move on, grow, and develop within the organisation. Where something goes wrong or where there’s a challenge, not necessarily stepping in and solving it, but letting that person know that you’re there to help and support them, really being a mentor. I guess, in that sense, posing questions to people, whether you know: Have you thought about looking at things this way? Have you thought about the other side’s perspective and all this? What solutions can you find for all this, and think back to what our values are? Have you understood what the issue is? Much of this goes back to those communication skills and the ability to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes and see where they’re coming from. SH: But do you think that trust can be easily established across cultures? You mentioned you deal with people from China, India, Malaysia, and Singapore. Is trust perhaps something different, depending on where you’re from? And how will you develop trust across cultures then? AS: I think the common denominator is how you interact with people, how you treat them, and particularly as a leader of teams as well, you would hope that you could tap anybody at whatever level within that team on the shoulder and pose the question, do you trust this person? This is important because I see that they have my back and support me in this area. I had a challenge here and they very much helped me with it. 6 Interview with Andrew Staples 61 <?page no="62"?> They’re looking out for me and for opportunities for me to grow and develop. I think that can help build and sustain trust. SH: Andrew, thank you so much for this wonderful interview and all the insights you’ve been sharing with me. Aha! This is Interesting • The term “globally curious” refers to people who are passionate about exploring different cultures, countries, and, more generally speaking, global affairs. In international leadership and business situations, they assume that the best way to connect with people of different backgrounds is to understand their societal and historical contexts. Their eagerness to challenge their own beliefs and openness to explore new perspectives help them handle the dynamics of intercultural interactions. • A corporate culture shapes how employees collaborate and interact with each other. A firm should be explicit about values and norms promoting inclusivity and diversity when operating internationally. These set the tone for global practices, including both formal and informal communication styles or conflict resolution. With the common touchpoints of integrity, consistency, and transparency, a positive corporate culture gives leaders guidelines for their actions and decisions, helping them navigate complex and diverse situations. • In intercultural situations, we must perceive, understand and control our emotions and those of others. According to Andrew, effective intercultural leaders often have high levels of emotional intelligence. They pay attention to how their feelings influence their thoughts and actions. This equips them for successful interpersonal relationships, better coping with stress and challenges and functioning more effectively in social and professional contexts. Through learning and practice, they continuously hone their emotional intelligence. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • Curiosity often drives activation. What is “activation”, and how is it helpful for the sense-making of intercultural encounters? 2) Leadership in East Asia • Why should we be curious about what is going on in Asia? • How is knowledge about societies and histories a good way of building rapport in Asia? 62 6 Interview with Andrew Staples <?page no="63"?> • English is the common language in Asian business. Is Japan an exception to the rule? Why? • How is non-verbal communication important in an Asian business context? Are there perhaps regional differences? • What is the meaning of “reading the air”? • What does Andrew refer to when he says, “What’s not being said is sometimes more important than what is actually being said”? • What is “Singlish,” and how could it possibly differ from Standard English? • Why is showing empathy and putting oneself in others’ shoes so important to successful business practices in many Asian cultures? 6 Interview with Andrew Staples 63 <?page no="65"?> 7 Interview with Tobias Off Sierk Horn (SH): Tobias, thank you so much for being with us today. Perhaps you’d like to briefly introduce yourself to my readers. Tobias Off (TO): Sure. My name is Tobias Off, and I have spent about ten years in Asia, of which about seven were in mainland China and three in Taiwan. For many years, I was the economic and political representative of the German state of Baden-Württemberg in China. The state is located in the Southwest of Germany and is regarded to be the country’s economic powerhouse. My main job at that time was to help German companies to enter the Chinese market. Almost all of the employees in my team were Chinese. Later on, I switched to a German software company in the field of industrial robotics and led their efforts to build a B2B software business in China. I wrote the business plan and then became the general manager of the newly founded Chinese entity to set the plan in motion. This included setting up a new office, hiring a local team, establishing marketing and sales, finding local customers - basically, setting up the whole organisation from scratch. I spent a lot of time in the Chinese cultural realm, so to say. SH: How important is it for a manager or leader to have strong communication skills when operating in China? TO: I think it’s essential, it’s very important. You can have the best plan in the world. If you don’t get your point across, if you don’t get your people involved, there’s only so much you can do by yourself, especially in a foreign country. This is particularly true for China, where there’s a language barrier for, I think, 95 % of all foreign managers, because it’s a difficult language to learn. So, I believe strong communication skills are crucial. SH: You talked about the difficulty of learning the Chinese language. How important do you think is it to speak Chinese, or how important is it to speak English? In what languages did you communicate? TO: I think it definitely helps if you can speak some Chinese. I personally communi‐ cated in English or in Chinese. My Chinese level is sufficient enough to run operations in Chinese, but it’s far from perfect. However, it helps. First of all, you get the respect of people working in this organisation because they know you put in the time to learn their language, which means you have a genuine interest in their culture and language. They will give you some credit for that, even if your Chinese is not perfect. Sometimes, after saying only “Ni hao” - which means “Hello” - people say things like “Wow, your Chinese is so good.” They exaggerate, of course, but it shows how well it is perceived that at least you tried. And it opens a lot of doors. If you want to able to break the ice, learn how to say some sentences in Chinese, and it will be a much smoother conversation and communication overall, even if you switch back to English <?page no="66"?> quickly. If you take it to a level where you can understand Chinese well enough to understand what locals say, even in business negotiations, it opens up another world. Because then the other side must consider that you might be able to hear anything they say. And that’s definitely an advantage. However, I think there are very few foreigners, especially in China, who really took it to a native level or who are super fluent in Chinese. I’ve met only a few throughout my time there. SH: Okay, it’s an advantage to speak Chinese when in China. But can you also overdo it? Does it come across as “strange” if your Chinese is too good? TO: I think the Chinese people desire their culture to be recognised on the world stage. So, they feel appreciated if somebody puts in the effort to learn their language. I didn’t ever have the feeling that you can speak Chinese “too well.” SH: I would like to follow up on Chinese language skills. Is this only an add-on? Just speaking Chinese won’t make you an intercultural leader or a good manager in China, right? TO: Yeah, definitely not. But it helps to understand people. When we think about what makes intercultural communication successful, from my perspective, that would be, first of all, to respect the other party and not to put yourself above them. When you speak their language, it kind of slightly levels the field. But other than that, it’s mostly your ability to listen to the other party. Maybe also to hide your first reaction, to be honest. Because sometimes you’re confronted with things that, at first sight, don’t make sense to you. You feel like, “What’s going on here? ” But if you show it, they will feel it, right? So, after a while, you learn to hide your initial reaction and think before you act. It’s hard to control, though, because our reaction is almost instinctive when we’re surprised. It also helps to avoid some assumptions about the other party. I mean, assumptions about their background, assumptions about, “Oh, he should understand that because it is obvious to me.” Try to empty your mind in a way, be unbiased. And maybe try to find some easy topics at first, for example, sports or food. Maybe you have something in common that doesn’t require a lot of words, but you can feel you’re on a similar level, like playing basketball together. The rules are the same everywhere, and there is not much need to talk. Actually, I frequently went to local basketball courts with Chinese colleagues and friends. That is just a little thing, but it absolutely helped me to bond with them and increase the mutual understanding. I think that that’s probably what matters more than language skills. Honestly, all that is easily said, but it’s not easily done. Because sometimes, as a manager of a company, you get to a place where you can immediately see what could be improved or what could be done. In Europe, we have pretty high standards, and when you go to a foreign country, sometimes you feel like, “I know what to do. It’s very obvious to me that this should be done,” and so on. Then, you easily adopt a mindset where you somehow start looking down on people. It’s not even intentional; it’s not like you want to look down on your team members or co-workers. You know, you 66 7 Interview with Tobias Off <?page no="67"?> should respect them. But the way you talk to them is more like, “Okay, I know how it goes, I know what should be done.” You don’t really listen to them and their reasons. This will make them feel like, “Oh, the new manager is sort of arrogant. He doesn’t really consider the situation on the ground here or where we come from.” You should keep in mind that they come from a different background. Everything has developed very quickly in China in the past ten to twenty years. A lot of things have improved. So, instead of telling them where they need to change, try to acknowledge what they have achieved already. Their way of doing things might be just as right as yours or even better. SH: But if you say you should not put yourself above others and more or less depend on their ways of doing things, then this comes with showing weaknesses. TO: Interesting point. Yes, it comes with showing weaknesses. Especially in China, I don’t think people are used to that. Speaking from my experience, they were baffled when my colleagues didn’t know me well yet and I showed weakness. If I were their manager, they would expect me to tell them what needs to be done. Clear instructions. I mean, in Europe, we have very flat hierarchies. This is usually not the case in China. So, for example, if I do things that are below my pay grade, it’s sometimes a bit strange to them. Let me give you a very simple example. If there’s some trash in front of the office and I happen to pass by in the morning, I pick up the trash and put it in the trash can. Some people would look at me like, “Hey, we have a cleaning lady to do that.” And I am like, “Yeah, but I’m responsible for the whole office. Right now, it’s dirty, and it’s very simple for me to do this, so I do it.” But I’ve had a lot of occasions where this kind of behaviour baffled them, and it baffled them even more if I expected them to act the same. I told them, “If you see some trash in front of our door, you should also pick it up.” But their reaction was, “Well, but I’m not the cleaning lady.” Usually, they prefer a leader who seems to know what needs to be done at all times. Everybody has their moments of weakness, but as a manager, it is often better not to show that, at least in China. Unless you really know your team members well, I would advise you to be careful about this. If later on you know each other really well, yes, you can admit, “Hey, I’m not perfect, I make mistakes, too.” But from the very beginning, I think they would expect you to be the perfect leader or act like it, at least. Because, in my experience, few Chinese managers would be so open about their weaknesses and rather try to hide them. SH: This is a very thin line, isn’t it, Tobias, in the sense of not showing weaknesses, but at the same time, not trying to be superior. The next question, looking in a slightly different direction, is about cultural fluency. Apart from linguistic fluency, is there something besides communication or language skills that makes you a successful leader? TO: For sure, there is. I think it is hard to quantify, but it’s definitely an important skill. It boils down to flexibility, your ability to adapt to new or different circumstances and to accept outcomes that are different from what you expected. It doesn’t necessarily 7 Interview with Tobias Off 67 <?page no="68"?> mean the outcome is better or worse, but you definitely need to be able to adapt to it and work with it. That is one thing. And I feel the other thing is curiosity. Just be curious about why the other one is behaving like this. What are the motives? Really, stay curious about the why. Why are they telling me this or that? You need to try to dig deeper. Then it becomes really interesting, right? It’s very rare that people just want to piss you off. They have their own reasons to act in a certain way. I think it is also important to know your own cultural background and your own priming. We all grew up in different environments, each of which is neither better nor worse than anyone else’s. Being able to identify how you yourself are “strange” compared to the rest of the world is a good skill to have. This kind of self-reflection is extremely helpful. However, it took me a long time to get there. I needed to go abroad to realise how different we Germans are sometimes. We are weird in our own ways. For example, we’re often not satisfied with something that others find good enough already. So we’re not really perceived as the most easygoing people in the world. We can go to the most beautiful beach and still complain that the sun is too hot there. Such constant dissatisfaction is not very helpful in a private setting; it won’t make you happy. However, it might be helpful in certain situations at work, such as when it comes to safety protocols. We are always looking for the 1 % that’s missing rather than being content with the 99 % we already have achieved. Chasing perfection seems to be a German quirk to me. In China, I learned that this has good and bad sides. Many times, I saw Chinese colleagues aim for “good enough” rather than perfection. Sometimes, that caused trouble, but sometimes, it also sped up the process, and they got more things done in a shorter time. I realised that it’s very natural for me to categorise things in my mind to look for a structure. For example, it’s normal for me to enter a room and notice if a picture on the wall is tilted. In China, I feel that nobody else notices such things often. It seems my brain was trained to work like that. But I learned to let it go; I can leave the picture hanging tilted; I don’t need to fix it because it’s a small detail that doesn’t matter much to the others in the room. But at least I can try to realise that I am the weird one in this room - not the others. And that helps, I think. Curiosity, flexibility, self-reflection. SH: Is that cultural sensitivity a general skill, or are these realisations China-specific? TO: I really think it’s a general skill to be open-minded and flexible enough to adapt to a new situation and respect people. Some cultures might be closer to your own or far away from your own. But in general, I think this is a skill that doesn’t only apply to China. SH: When hiring people, or when you advised others, what kind of people should they be sending to China? What should these people bring with them to be successful in China? TO: I think language skills definitely help. Maybe not Chinese, but at least English. If the person’s English is already sort of choppy, that creates some friction. On top of that, it would be nice if that person had some experience in a foreign country. It doesn’t 68 7 Interview with Tobias Off <?page no="69"?> have to be China. But I think it’s good if that person has been abroad and has been confronted with situations that challenge his own morals, beliefs and ways of doing things. If he has been challenged once like that, he probably learned to elevate himself to another level and adopt a bird’s eye view rather than the view on the ground. Of course, open-mindedness is really important, too. If someone’s hired for a mission abroad, it should be somebody who considers different cultural backgrounds as enriching, someone who’s interested in different cultures. Differences shouldn’t be considered barriers; they should be considered enriching. That is an important personality trait, I think. One more thing I would like to mention is the ability to organise something. That sounds very basic, but I don’t want to find a “Mr Know-it-all” and send this guy on-site to tell everyone what to do. Abroad, it’s not really going to work. I want somebody who is able to deal with unforeseen circumstances and whatever is thrown at him, finds a way to come up with a solution, and knows when he needs to ask for help and support. Because we all need that. Especially when you go to a country like China, there are so many things you can’t do yourself. You need resources and other people; there are a lot of things that are random and sudden and cannot be planned. I want somebody who’s resilient to deal with that on the spot. And acknowledges that they don’t know it all, but he’s able to organise it all. SH: Have you observed that you need somebody on the ground, be it a spouse or a friend? Someone who helps you explain how things work locally? TO: That is a good observation, actually. Two aspects come to my mind. First, it definitely helps to have somebody explain to you what’s really going on, but it doesn’t have to be a spouse. I think it’s good to have such a person yet who could also be a good friend, a very loyal employee, or a mentor. I was always lucky enough to have somebody like that in my company. Sometimes, I had to hire them, and it took a while for us to get to that level, but this kind of person who can explain the culture to you is worth a lot. The second thing is it always helps to have a stable family environment at home, no matter which nationality your domestic partner has. If managers get sent abroad and their families are unhappy in the destination country, it won’t take long until this whole thing explodes in their faces. The challenge is mostly to ensure that both partners can succeed in terms of their job perspectives. It is rare, honestly. Usually, one person is sent there, and the other one follows along. In this case, it’s very difficult for the other person to find a job that is equally satisfying and challenging, so a compromise has to be made. It’s a bit easier if the person who gets sent abroad has a local spouse because, most likely, the spouse has his or her own career there already and won’t struggle with things like work permits and language issues. SH: Can anybody be an intercultural leader? Ultimately, in China, do rank and position matter? TO: I think there are two parts to the question. First, can anybody be a leader? The answer is probably no. But if you ask me if anybody can be an intercultural leader, the 7 Interview with Tobias Off 69 <?page no="70"?> underlying question is, “Can everybody adapt culturally.” And I think everybody can if they have the personality. Honestly, cultural leadership should be encouraged at any level. I think it is quite essential in an organisation to have a good cultural understanding and communication, not only on the leadership level. If you’re the manager, and you have a brilliant cultural understanding but others around you don’t, you will probably become a bottleneck because everybody will look for you instead of communicating directly with each other. You need people on an operational level to talk to each other. And that’s, for example, why I hired people in China who can speak English. It’s not for me. I can communicate in Chinese, but I know it would be very healthy if they could also directly communicate with my German colleagues. If all that communication had to go through me, my head would explode. So, I think it is really essential to instil this into the whole organisation. Whenever I went back to the German headquarters, I visited a lot of colleagues, and I explained again and again why we were doing things in a certain way, why this colleague was behaving like that etc. I really tried to plant a seed in their mind to increase the understanding of their Chinese colleagues. And of course, I was working with the Chinese colleagues as well, but that was easier because I met them almost daily, whereas I didn’t meet the German guys as frequently. However, once this mutual understanding was there, efficiency increased a lot. SH: I think you raised an important point about this bottleneck because I see this over and over again: These people become communicators in both directions. And that causes a lot of confusion. But towards the end of today’s interview, Tobias, I’d like to look at the issue of trust. Because I think trust is the foundation of all intercultural relationship-building negotiations. In China, how do you, in your experience, create trust across the cultural boundaries between Germany and China? How do you do that? TO: This is a tough question, actually. I think joint activities and experiences help a lot. You have to invest time. I mean, we Europeans are usually very transactional. You know, like I sign a contract and then this can be the basis of our trust, whereas that doesn’t work in China. You have to spend time with people, and you have to go through some experiences together, good or bad. It’s like a relationship, right? Once you make it through the rough patch, it is more stable than before. I think this is a really important point. Trust, of course, could also be established through rules. I mean, maybe you don’t trust the person per se, but you trust them to stick to the rules. You can try to establish a regime of rules, but yeah, it’s not as stable as if you can really deep-down trust people on a personal level. I think another way to increase trust is through transparency. I always try to be very transparent and also fair. That means treating everybody equally. It sounds very simple, but when you arrive in a new country or a new company, you might initially like some people better than others. You might have your favourite employees because some guy’s English is good, which makes communication easy, or you play basketball 70 7 Interview with Tobias Off <?page no="71"?> with that guy and so on. Hence, it’s not so easy to maintain the same level of fairness with everyone, but transparency helps. Make what you decide and how you act and react visible to others. And this is also something that I would like to bring to the whole organisation because if the foreign headquarters don’t know what’s going on with the local organisation in China, it’s like a black box. This will sooner or later lead to problems, especially if you ever hand it over to a local successor. There is always a tendency for the black box to become even more black in a way, which is not happening intentionally, but it happens. However, if you establish transparent processes and a company culture of transparency, headquarters don’t have to ask as many questions because they get proactively informed. They know what’s going on. And the same goes for the employees. They don’t have to guess. Just try to be objective and inform them transparently. Building trust helps a lot if you - as a manager - show consistent, unbiased behaviour. Last but not least, I think it is important to have common goals. Everyone might approach them from different angles or use their own way. But if you are sure that your colleagues and employees are all running towards the same goal, it creates trust among each other - even if you don’t really understand their ways at first. In the end, you need to be able to trust that everyone is heading in the same direction. SH: Is trust in China the same thing as the German understanding of trust? TO: No, I think it’s different in a way that it’s very personal in China. It’s much less transactional. In Europe, I can sign a contract, and then I’m obliged to that piece of paper in a way, right? In China, I’m more obliged to the person, and they will count more on how much I owe them and how much they owe me. Whereas here in Europe, we don’t have that concept often. Of course, we give favours to each other and trust friends more than others, but we don’t really keep count of it, especially not on a personal level. That’s my experience, at least. Trust in China is different. To be honest, it has changed among the Chinese themselves in the past ten years. It is a very interesting topic. And well, I don’t want to generalise it too much, but in my interpretation, I believe this might have something to do with the cultural revolution, with the days when you had to really stick your elbows out to survive. You always had to anticipate that somebody else would be first if you didn’t toughen up and fight for yourself. Trust was rare in those days. It’s also a generational thing. In China, I feel like older people still sometimes have the feeling that they need to be fierce to get what they want or deserve. But I think the young generation is different. They have slowly learned to trust each other more. The government also implemented some systems to support this, such as its controversial social credit system. For many Western observers, this creates too much of a surveillance state, but many Chinese still welcome such a system in the absence of mutual trust. SH: Since you mentioned that trust is something about accountability in China. So, you do something for somebody else, and then that puts the other person in a certain position to do you a favour as well. How openly is that being communicated? 7 Interview with Tobias Off 71 <?page no="72"?> TO: Usually, this won’t be as obvious. And it’s sometimes not that easy for us as foreigners to read. Sometimes, you can even be trapped. I remember one instance of an employee of mine. He worked in sales, and he wanted more freedom to spend more time outside the office and manage his schedule as he wanted. He basically wanted me to control him less. And then one day, he was like, “Oh, let’s have dinner together.” And I said, “Sure, why not.” I’m always interested in people. And like I said, spending time with each other and having dinner together is usually a good idea to increase trust. So, he took me to a restaurant and ordered the biggest and most expensive seafood platter on the menu. Then, I knew I was in trouble. Of course, he wouldn’t let me pay. As a European, we probably would’ve said, “Okay, let’s split the bill.” But it doesn’t really work like that in China. It was an invitation, and it would be rude to refuse it. At the end of the day, I knew that this was sort of a trade from his point of view, “Okay, I invite you for something really valuable and in return, I have some expectation that you give me more freedom to plan my schedule (and absence from the office) as I wish.” It didn’t have to be mentioned during the dinner, but the message was clear. Aha! This is Interesting • Effective communication skills are crucial for intercultural leaders. We need to be aware that communication is more than merely exchanging information. We want to connect with people on an emotional level, and that in spite of language barriers. While Tobias admits that speaking the local language helps create a positive and harmonious working environment, it is not crucial to be super fluent. Even basic language skills can open many doors as you show your commitment to bridging cultures. It is a good step towards building relationships and creating a collaborative and inclusive atmosphere. Regardless of our local proficiency skills, we should always respect the local culture and hold back our own values. • Intercultural leadership is always a balancing act between showing authority and humility. While we want to come across as decisive, we do not have all the answers for a local context. The willingness to admit these limitations and seek local advice as a result makes us more relatable and perhaps even more trustworthy. Instead of imposing our own values, we should accept the diversity of human experiences. There is no right or wrong in the solutions that cultures have found to universal problems. Indeed, many economies have developed rapidly over the last decades (China being a case in point). Tobias gently reminds us that we should acknowledge these achievements. • Trust-building follows local rules. While we may think of trust as the result of a series of interactions where we learn how and to what extent we and others have lived up to our expected roles and obligations, this may not be the case in all parts of the world. Trust can, however, also be very personal. Under these circumstances, it is based on emotional bonds (and not so much on rules or contracts). This would suggest investing time in building personal relationships, 72 7 Interview with Tobias Off <?page no="73"?> especially through shared experiences. The key to creating trust across cultural boundaries is consistency, transparency, and fairness. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are “emotions”? How and to what extent is their expression universal? • What are “micro-expressions”? And when (and why) might hiding our emotions in intercultural encounters be important? • Why are emotional processes (and their regulation) so crucial for intercultural leadership? 2) Leadership in East Asia • In what ways does speaking the local language “open up another world” in Asian business? • What are good ways to create common cognitive ground? • In Asia, it is surprisingly difficult to contact local people (outside work). How could hobbies such as sports or arts help? • Language and mindset are related. Why should we pay particular attention to how we reveal our genuine emotions and thoughts about what we experience locally? • Why should we be careful when showing or admitting weaknesses as leaders in China? • How is learning about one’s own “strangeness” a good starting point for developing leadership skills in an Asian context? • According to Tobias, what increases the likelihood of leadership success in a Chinese context? • Is it helpful to have a “go-to” person working in countries like China? What should they be able to do? • Why was English proficiency a recruitment criterion for Chinese staff ? • In what ways did Tobias create trust across the cultural boundaries between Germany and China? • What is the role of personal trust and a strong relationship with someone (or “Guanxi”) in China? 7 Interview with Tobias Off 73 <?page no="75"?> 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries Sierk Horn (SH): Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. Let’s have a look at your experiences with intercultural leadership. I think the best way to start would be for you to introduce yourself to my readers and my students. Maarten de Vries (MdV): I’m originally from the Netherlands and a Dutch citizen. I lived there for my youth basically, but then I started studying international manage‐ ment and international business as a postgraduate. You can’t stay home if you want to study those kinds of things; you have to experience it. I was fortunate enough to live in several countries during my studies. I then started working in Vienna. After about three-and-a-half years, we wanted to move away from there, so we started our Asian experience by living in Jakarta, and I fell in love with this part of the world. We didn’t stay all that long at the end, only four to five months. We spent two months in Singapore and then moved to Lake Constance region; my wife is from there. It was actually the start of the “Asian virus” that we got. Then, I began working for Blum, where I still work today. I started in 2006, so I have been there for quite a while. I worked in different functions here at the headquarters in Austria. I was a trainee and product trainer in the marketing department for the first three years. I then moved to India for around two years to set up and head Blum India. Afterwards, I relocated to China, where I spent around five years as general manager of Blum. I was in Shanghai during that time. I then moved back to Austria and took on the role of head of sales in Asia within our HQ. I was dealing with markets from Turkey to Japan, so quite a wide range of cultures. Since the 1st of January 2023, I have been the regional director Asia-Pacific. Regionally, that starts in India and goes all the way to New Zealand, so it all shifted a little bit towards the east. I am still working with Asian countries. The Pacific countries were added to that list. My function is a bit more like that of a regional general manager; therefore, the general managers of the local subsidiaries are reporting to me. We have 30 offices in Asia-Pacific and more than 900 staff in this region spread over ten legal entities. Together with these people and our partners, we’re trying to make our company more successful and meet the needs of our customers in all the individual countries. Currently, I live in Kuala Lumpur. Kuala Lumpur is quite centrally based within the Asia-Pacific region, so it’s easy to get around. It’s five hours to Mumbai and five hours to Shanghai, Ho Chi Minh and Jakarta are just close by, it’s a two-hour flight. Of course, Auckland is far away, but it’s always far away, regardless of where you are. Sydney is about eight hours, so it’s quite a central location from where I am, so that’s very good. SH: Excellent; thank you so much, Maarten, for this brief introduction. You mentioned that you cover all of Asia but have also lived in India, China and Malaysia. Is management per se different in these countries compared to your experiences in Europe? <?page no="76"?> MdV: I think the general essence of management is probably the same. How you motivate your team and get the system running might differ slightly per country. It has something to do with the country’s historical and cultural development, as well as the economy and education levels. Still, the essence of what a manager has to do is the same. It’s just about how to motivate a team and give guidance, structure, and framework. A manager doesn’t have to do it all by himself but works with the experts to develop that. They take on the responsibility and make sure that the team is motivated, knows what to do, and recognises talent within that talent pool. It doesn’t matter if you’re in Austria, Singapore, Indonesia or China for that matter. The essence is the same, but how you do it is different. In Vietnam, our staff loves to go out, and spending some time outside the office with them is crucial, for example, for a joint dinner. Our Austrian colleagues might not be that eager to do that with their bosses when they’re in an Austrian setting. It all depends a little bit on the country, but the essence of the work is the same. SH: I’m sure my readers are also curious about the regional differences. MdV: One thing that you have in most Asian countries (in some more than others) is the topic of face, i.e. giving face, taking face, basically being respected, especially in front of a crowd. I think that is something that we all have to be very careful about. You must be very careful what you say and how you say things. This is quite strong in countries such as China and Japan for example. Other Southeast Asian countries are slightly less sensitive towards this concept. I think in certain countries, people are looking for a sense of belonging, especially in young, upcoming economies. They want to belong to a “club; ” they want to stick together. Maybe in China, which is already further in their economic development, people might say, “No, I want my private time as well; I don’t need to hang around with people at the office or with my boss for that matter.” It often has something to do with the economic development of a country. Another important factor across all countries is how you show respect. I prefer a low-key management style; I like being close to people and paying attention to small things. I often notice that the small things are much bigger than the big ones. The big things that you can do, as I mentioned, we have more than 900 members of staff. I’ll send 900 birthday emails every year, so everybody gets a private greeting, and it’s not just a copy and paste. It depends a little bit on my relationship with the individual person, and that takes you far. For example, when I send that birthday message to China, I’ll probably add some funny GIF that’s a bit flashing. If I had sent it to somebody in Australia, it would have been less funky. Maybe there’s a GIF in there, but it’s a little bit different. I feel that such small differences go far. At the end of the day, and this is my personal belief, I think, in essence, the people are all the same regardless of where they are from. Everybody wants the same things: to be respected, have a sense of belonging, and take care of their families and health. That means as an international manager, you have to understand and be willing to make differences and keep on fine-tuning approaches. 76 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries <?page no="77"?> SH: Let us perhaps focus on the issue of respect. What is respect to you? And the second one is how important it is to show respect in these countries. MdV: I think in these countries, it’s very important to show respect, and a lot of expat managers forget that. They “get away” with a lot of stuff because they are foreigners. But I believe respect is incredibly important in these countries. Respect can be shown in different ways: It could be personal respect, cultural respect for somebody or respect for the job that someone is doing. I think a mistake a lot of expat managers make is that they look for differences between employees. Let me return to what I said, “We are all human at the end of the day, and our needs are not that different.” Some expat managers might be a bit too blind for it, and they’ll just go after textbooks and say, “Well, Chinese are like this; Indonesians are like that.” But these countries are continuously developing, and so much faster than a cultural book about a particular Asian country is written. The book would probably already be old by the time the ink is dry, and it will already be old in content. In this case, respect also means being curious, listening, and not knowing everything. Just ask, “Am I doing this right? ” “Why are you doing it like this? ” “I’m interested in that,” or “In the past, you did it slightly differently, now you do it like this. Can you tell me where it’s coming from? ” It’s a form of respect. Many people can play different kinds of roles, but respect is of utmost importance. I think in an Asian setting, this may mean spending a little bit more time in one-to-one talks. In my experience, Asian staff need secure surroundings in which they know it is okay to take a risk and that the management wants their true opinion. For that, an environment has to be created where this is okay and the staff feels comfortable and respected. In these countries, where a textbook sometimes says that local staff does not want to take a risk, in my experience, it is something completely different. However, it takes a lot more time. It’s a very time-consuming way of managing an organisation of people, but if you’re willing to put in the extra mile, my experience is that it pays off fivefold. It might be a slow start. You probably will not always be as effective as you might want to be. You come into a new country, are motivated, and want to get stuff done. Still, take that time, lean back, take a look at what the culture is, respect the culture for what it is, respect people for who they are, and then work with what you have in a respectful way regarding those surroundings. All this goes a long, long way. It’s a question of what you’re in for. Are you there for the long run? Or, are you there for quick returns? If you’re in there for quick returns, forget what I said before. Let’s go in, say what you want and then get it done. If you’re in there for the long run, you want your people to stay with you for a long time and develop them further. It is worth spending more time understanding the surroundings and the staff. And I think a lot of people will be surprised by what their staff is capable of doing. In my experience, if you go that extra mile, it is definitely worth it. Having said that this may sound like I’m the smarty pants and I know everything. That is absolutely not the case. However, I’ve often seen international managers, and those aspiring to be start making these mistakes. Their staff, colleagues, or customers probably won’t tell them 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries 77 <?page no="78"?> to their face, out of respect for their superior, that the manager may be culturally out of bounds. SH: Clearly, respect is an important issue. But so is trust, isn’t it? MdV: Well, trust goes both ways, doesn’t it? I will give it to anybody I meet, and that’s not naive, but I will give everybody the benefit of the doubt. I’ll give everybody a good portion of trust already in advance because you can take a half-glass-full or glass-half-empty approach; I tend to take the half-glass-full approach because I think it will go a little bit further like that. I believe again that everybody has good intentions in their lives. That already helps. People feel that when you say, okay, good, this person is interested in me, and he really wants to listen to what I’ve got to say. A second component is time. Maybe in certain countries, it will be much easier to get this first initial contact, and if we talk about Asian countries, it takes traditionally longer, but again, that’s a time that you need to invest. Then a lot of trust comes from management by example. My experience is that I do it, and people see that I do it. They say, well, why am I not doing it and trying to? Now, we talk about a manager with his own employees, but you must develop trust between the teams you manage as well. Of course, there can be trust issues even in the same cultural setting. You need to be a bridge maker. A technique that I like to use is putting myself on the chair of somebody else. I try to ask myself the question, “How would I react to what I am about to say if I am that other person? ” I will try to change my perspective with as much knowledge as I can about that particular person, that department, or that local culture. The adaption of perspectives helps me to see where my message is not right, and/ or I can anticipate questions or insecurities that would come up. That means that a message sometimes has to be brought differently if approaching a group of Chinese managers, a group of Indian sales staff, and/ or a Thai customer. I think sometimes we shouldn’t make too many shortcuts, and we should just lean back a little and say, “I’m sitting on the other one’s chair, and now I’m going to be self-critical about myself.” The target is not to change the content of the message and also not the decision itself, but the target is to respect your counterpart and think about how to bring the message across. I believe that such actions will be noticed by your counterparts (and not just in Asia). They will feel more respected and will have a quicker buy-in. It’s also important to actively ask people for feedback and input. I don’t know everything… nobody can know everything. Just ask for inputs with questions like: • I’m not born into this culture. Can you give me more perspective? • I might not have been there from the first minute we started this company, but can you please explain to me where things are coming from? However, if you are going to ask, you should take the respect to really listen and act on such important inputs. If people notice this, they will feel respected and will open up. 78 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries <?page no="79"?> SH: Maarten, you make wonderful points here. However, telling less and asking more to come with the risk of showing weakness. Or is it okay to show weakness like that? MdV: Of course, it depends on how you look at it. Also, the environment in which you work is important. At the company I have been at for already so long, showing weakness is not really a weakness; showing weakness is saying, “I’m not perfect,” and it is inviting other people to help shape the success of the company. Just because I have a fancy business card, I cannot answer all questions. If I could answer all the questions, why do I need teams in the first place? I would just need to copy myself. Which is wrong! My motto is: I want the brightest idea on the table, whether it’s mine, the one from a finance employee or the one from the cleaner. I do not care; whoever has the brightest idea should bring that up. I want people to take that “risk” to speak out, and I will applaud them for it. You won’t see me going out and say, “I know everything.” That is not my management style. How should I know everything? Nobody knows everything. A lot of professionals do this, and in many cultures, it is also quite common to do so (or even expected). However, as the interview is with me, I can only reflect on how I see things. Putting yourself in a vulnerable position is management by example. If I would manage by saying, “I know everything,” what is the chance the staff will try to show weaknesses? What is the chance that they will bring up very important questions like: • “Maarten, I don’t know this. Can you help me with this? ” • “I have a gap in my knowledge; I need to go with extra training.” • “That’s part of my task, but I’m actually not really good at it, and I’m starting to make mistakes; I need somebody to help me.” • “Maarten, I think you got it wrong as you missed out on this…” So, how should I expect others to do the same thing if I don’t walk-the-talk by showing self-criticism and openness? But I think that this approach is there only when you are there for the long run. If I’m in for the long haul, I’m really interested in people where they actually are, what their capabilities are and how we can shape teams in the best possible way. It’s good to know where everybody’s strengths and weaknesses are. Sometimes, we can develop those weaknesses for the better, and sometimes not, but maybe somebody else on the team (or another team) has that special ability and can add important contributions. My experience is when you start mixing people and teams, you get really, really good results, so I would find any manager pretentious who stands in front of his staff and says, “I know everything; just follow my lead.” You could argue that traditionally, managers are supposed to be like that and show strength; “We must be strong and need to guide the way.” I would argue that this approach was and is less ideal, and I feel that new generations are also not looking for such management styles. Therefore, I’m a large advocate of also showing weakness, asking for help and showing that we 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries 79 <?page no="80"?> need the team collective to develop. As a manager, I need to know when I need to be standing in front of the team, when beside them and when behind them. SH: So, ultimately, you are saying everybody can be a leader? MdV: I believe everybody is a leader in a specific situation, regardless of the position. Everybody takes on some kind of responsibility, and that’s also some kind of leadership. I need everybody in my team to give their A-game and work together. The team members should be aware of the role that they are in and what the direction of the company is. This works when everybody takes responsibility and ownership and, within the framework given, uses their capabilities in the best possible way. It is a team effort and not a collective of individuals. The same as in a football team. You have the A selection and the B selection, but if somebody in the A selection is injured and I didn’t train the B because I only focus on my top stars, I’m a player short, and I will never win anything! Besides giving your A-Game, it is important to know also where boundaries may lay,.. and sometimes push those boundaries further out by new approaches, getting new hires or developing the team to take the next step in their or the company's development. Hence, you have to know your team, their strengths, their chances, weaknesses and also what their gaps are. In my experience, this is not only something from the Western world - this also counts for Asian markets. SH: Are there generational differences in Asia when it comes to this understanding of leadership? I suppose there are perhaps also different expectations when it comes to leadership in Asia. MdV: I think it’s a very, very, very right assumption, and probably even more in than in the Western world. If we look, for example, at some of our customers in China; many of them used to be poor; some of them were farmers or simple carpenters. Many of them became very wealthy and made fortunes. They have gigantic companies now but come from very poor backgrounds and often had relatively low education levels in their youth. These people, with a lot of blood, sweat and tears, made it to successful business owners. Now, they have put their money aside and sent their kids to good universities in China, Asia or the Western world. Those kids, of course, get a whole different kind of palette of information, both from their parents or from education abroad. This is just an example of business owners, but you would have the same with office workers. I believe the gap between the Chinese generation after the opening of Deng Xiaoping and the current generation is huge. It is probably bigger than what we would have in Europe between the baby boomers and Generation Z. We can see that in other countries as well. China opened up already a long time ago; if you take a look, let’s say in Vietnam again, they opened up their country later as China. The gaps might be a little bit smaller, but I think the next generation who’s going to school right now will probably also have some kind of a gap with their parents and grandparents. I think it’s at the development level, and possibly you could see the 80 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries <?page no="81"?> same in other countries. There is a big gap. This also shows in their expectations when it comes to leadership styles. SH: Do you speak some Asian language? MdV: No, it’s terrible, but I don’t. SH: But do you think speaking a local language is necessary? MdV: Of course, it’s beneficial - there’s no question about it. However, in a business setting, it can also be done without speaking the local language as well. In many countries, especially in Southeast Asia, English is a very commonly used language. If I look at Malaysia, for example, English is one of the official languages. So, it’s very easy to get around with English in Malaysia. It would be good to speak Malay, but I don’t need to. It’s the same in Mumbai. I don’t speak Hindi or Marathi, but I get by with English very, very well. I think it’s less of an issue in Southeast Asia, where English is more common. Things might be different if you go to Japan, China or Korea. In my case I’m in charge of so many different countries. How many languages should I be able to speak in order to do my job? The people I work with understand that I can not know so many different languages and feel that I’m sincerely interested in them… that makes up for the language gaps I might have. Without the local language skills, it requires a little more work and time to understand the local culture, and you might depend on others a bit more. But it might also have some advantages because if you don’t understand the language, you will have to ask more questions. So you might get some more input and explanations. But in general, of course, it’s a benefit if you speak the language, there’s no question about it. SH: English is the lingua franca of a global world economy, isn’t it? And you get by. The key question is, is there something other than linguistic or language skills? Is there a kind of cultural sensitivity that can make up, or is it even more important than speaking the language? MdV: I know people who speak the local language, but I have the feeling they don’t understand the country they have been living in for a long time. There’s a tendency, especially in Southeast Asia and even China, where the local people have quite a lot of respect for hierarchy. Whether you are a foreign manager or not, you can get away with stuff that European staff probably wouldn’t allow. I think of things such as not listening to the staff, overruling them constantly, or maybe even shouting at them. Traditionally, the local staff wouldn’t complain. And sometimes, you could argue that stuff gets done faster in the short-term. At the end of the day, the question is, “Are you in it for the long run, or are you here for quick returns? ” As the company I work for always has its eye on the long term picture, I am given the freedom to use my management style and work closely with the teams. But if I worked in a different kind of company, potentially, I wouldn’t be very happy, and they wouldn’t be very happy with me. When hiring, we also keep this in mind and hire accordingly. We have applicants who are the brightest students at the best universities. And sometimes, we don’t take them because their personality and values 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries 81 <?page no="82"?> don’t feel like a match. That has nothing to do with the fact that they’re bad managers or employees; They would just be in the wrong setting if they were with us. At the same time, as a manager, you always have to push the system a bit. You shouldn’t only hire the same because then you will never get any new ideas and will not develop. You have to find the right balance between where I can push the system and where I have somebody who is also a bit compliant with the system. This counts also in an international setting. Coming back to this idea of cultural sensitivity. I think if you speak the language, you probably have a better chance of learning that particular culture and hence you have a real benefit. If you don’t speak the language but are open to the local culture and the people, you still have a good chance of getting great cultural sensitivity; it just takes a bit more time and effort. If you are open you will be asking more questions. You will be looking for people who can mentor you. I believe that you will never properly integrate if you can speak the language but don’t care about the culture and the people. I also believe that the fluency of language skills is not that important either… to a large extent, it is a mindset thing more than anything else. SH: What makes people successful working in Asia or across cultures? What are the key attributes? MdV: When hiring a new employee, it is important that we have somebody that has a good understanding of the tasks at hand - he or she needs the skills to do the job. This is either business, technical, or some other required knowledge. The new employee should also fit into the company setting and culture. When hiring for international positions, it needs a bit more because dealing with cultures can increase the complexity of the tasks. I ask myself, “Is somebody hungry? ” “Is he or she willing to go the extra mile? ” “Is somebody really interested? ” And that you can feel this and that is just as equally important for me. Some of the people we hire may not have gone to university, but they are much smarter than those with a university degree. A University degree, at the end of the day, is a piece of paper that shows that you passed your tests. But with diplomas, you don’t motivate people. You can maybe impress people with diplomas. And that will be for the short run. If you’re there for the short run, impressing is very important. But at the end of the day, people want content. People want to see that this person actually understands what he’s talking about, whether it is a technical, factual, or cultural topic. And I see us as international managers, regardless of nationality, as the bridge builders at the end of the day. That’s what I’m looking for. Yes, of course, I look at degrees, working experience, and stuff like that. Of course, I would be lying if I wouldn’t. But it goes a whole lot further than just that. As I said, we’ve hired some people with far less classical academic education, but they excel in their jobs. So, in this case, I might be a bit different from some other people. 82 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries <?page no="83"?> Some university graduates can learn, but they cannot apply. They might not have human skills. They might not have human interest. But these skills are important for businesses. Curiosity and interest are also very crucial. Those are things that you can’t really learn. Somebody can explain to me how to calculate something or how to structure something on the computer. I can learn about the law. These things are all a bit black and white. There is a right, or there is a wrong. But when it comes to people and cultures, it is not that simple. It’s the interest, the curiosity, the willingness to really listen and to really understand that become so important. Unfortunately, those are not things that we can learn at a university. You get these skills maybe from your upbringing or experiences in life. Maybe something happened in your life that sparked, and you said, “Well, this is something I want.” I like to see a person being “hungry” for the intercultural and people skills. I would like to see a twinkle in their eyes when they talk about international experiences. That twinkle you have or do not have normally gives a peak straight into somebody’s soul. And those are the people that have a lot of prerequisites to do well in an international setting. Aha! This is Interesting • Maarten sees curiosity and genuine interest in people as key attributes for success in international roles. He defines these as the willingness to really listen, to really learn, and to really engage with people from other cultures. When hiring he pays particular attention to such passion for cultural understanding. For him, this “hunger” to learn and engage with others is as important, if not more, than formal qualifications, including university degrees. These qualities of connecting with people you cannot learn. In intercultural encounters, there are never clear answers; you have to follow your intuition. • When abroad, we all too easily fall into the trap of not finding the right tone for local customs and culture. In the more extreme cases, we subtly or perhaps even overtly compare and judge other cultures by our own standards. The step to a feeling of some sort of superiority is a small one. In business settings, such intercultural immaturity may show in not listening to staff or constantly overruling others. We may even get away with such poor behaviour because of rank. But Maarten reminds us that even in stressful situations (and on secondments abroad, we inevitably face such moments), we may want to display the same behaviour as we would at home. • In intercultural settings, small gestures can make a big difference. Maarten prefers a low-key and people-centric intercultural leadership style. This is rooted in his observation that people are essentially all the same. Geography and culture do not matter. Regardless of where people are from, we all want the same things, for instance, safety, belonging, love, and respect. He lives this insight by, for 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries 83 <?page no="84"?> example, sending personalised birthday greetings to all his staff. These are not copy-and-paste jobs but are always a reflection of his intimate relationship with his team. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are “motivations,” and why is their understanding so important for intercul‐ tural leaders? • Do you agree with Maarten that people have the same “hierarchy of needs” regardless of where they are from? • According to Bennett, people progress in intercultural competence over time. He distinguishes between ethnocentric and ethnorelative worldviews. What are they? And how do they affect our ability to interact with people of different cultural backgrounds? 2) Leadership in East Asia • What does Maarten mean by “face,” and why should managers be careful about it in Asian settings? • Why is spending time together, even after work, necessary in Asia? Are there regional differences? • Why is it risky to follow management guidebooks on Asia? • When in Asia, why should managers prioritise understanding a country’s culture? • Why and how is management by example effective in intercultural environments such as Asia? • Why is it important for intercultural leaders to ask for feedback from staff when in Asia? • Maarten acknowledges that leadership expectations differ across generations in Asia. Why might this be the case? • English proficiency levels vary across Asia. What are the implications for learning local languages? • Does speaking an Asian language make you automatically an expert for that specific culture? 84 8 Interview with Maarten de Vries <?page no="85"?> 9 Interview with Sascha Singer Sierk Horn (SH): Let’s start with a short introduction. Perhaps you’d like to introduce yourself to my readers. Who are you, and what are you doing? Sascha Singer (SS): I’m Sascha Singer, originally born in Austria, Vorarlberg, Hohe‐ nems. I’m working for thyssenkrupp Presta in Eschen - Liechtenstein. I have been working for 24 years at this company, and before I joined the company, I attended university in Graz. Before that, I went to the HTL, a Technical School in Bregenz. I had a lot of different positions and responsibilities, during all those years in this company. Currently, I’m the CEO of the steering gear business, with a turnover of over 1 billion euros. During these 24 years, I had the opportunity not just to visit but also to work in many countries. I had already moved to France for several months at a very early stage of my career. There, I worked with numerous people from various countries and cultures. When I was about to finish my studies in 2006, I got the opportunity to go to China. So, I relocated to Changchun, north of China, and stayed there for four years. Afterwards, I went to Shanghai for another four years. Overall, I spent eight years in China. Then, I got the chance to go back to Europe, not to my home base, but to Germany. For the next five years, I was the general manager of our plant in Schönebeck, near Magdeburg, in eastern Germany. After this, I finally made it back, step by step, closer to my hometown. Now, after 13 years of working abroad, I’m back where I originally started. SH: Sascha, thank you so much for this brief introduction. So clearly, you have plenty of international experience, and this is the main focus of this interview. You have been in various leadership positions at home and abroad. In your experience, what makes leadership across cultures successful? SS: I wouldn’t say it’s just one thing. Multiple things need to come together to succeed, either as a leader or if you’re working abroad in other countries and cultures. From what I have learned, the first and most important topic is that you have to be respectful toward the people. Every culture has some specialities which you must be aware of. You should know a few basic things you can read about in etiquette guides like Knigge and learn about do’s and don’ts. But it’s not just one type of person, like in Austria. There isn’t just “the Austrian guy.” There are many different Austrians in each province and region. It’s the same everywhere. You have to respect the people and treat them the same way you would like to be treated. Also, work on building up relationships. I believe that is a common approach that goes for all countries. As I mentioned, I have worked with different kinds of people from all over the world. From my experience, there are always a few things you need to have, either to be a leader but also to be able to work across cultures. You need to like people. When you are a technician, you are a technician, and you like doing things by yourself. But today, even this aspect has changed. You always have to work in a team. Therefore, being able to work in a team <?page no="86"?> is absolutely essential and key to our success. But to do so, you need to like people. Especially as a leader, you need to have something in your DNA that makes you take care of the people you are responsible for. Plus, how you treat people is 99 per cent coming back to you. In my opinion, if you would like to send an expert to another country, they should know how to support the job on-site. But even more important is that these people have the right DNA to work with others. So, being respectful, supportive, and asking questions. When I was in Changchun, China, we were two or three experts building up a company and a plant. Everybody from the controlling, logistics, and HR departments always came to us, asking, “Could you translate this document? ” “Can you help me with that? ” “How is this system working? ” So, basically, you’ve been involved in almost all aspects of the company, and you need to be very forthcoming and helpful. This also gives you the opportunity to learn a lot by yourself. If you’re working in a headquarters in Austria, Germany, or Switzerland, you have a very focused area where you work, whatever you’re responsible for. Whether you were a big boss or a department leader, you have a very dedicated area of responsibility. If you’re doing that, then you have basically been involved in everything. And it’s a good thing to learn a lot. SH: Thank you so much for sharing these first steps of what makes people successful interculturally. What role does communication play when you deal with people across cultures? SS: That’s a very good question. If you are rather quiet and introverted, you need to have a few basic communication skills as well. It doesn’t mean you have to be the sales guy who’s running around and talking to everybody. Plus, that becomes quite annoying at a certain point. But you shouldn’t be too shy to talk to people you have just met and ask questions. I have experienced that if you are polite and have good manners and etiquette, then you are already halfway through. And you’re already able to talk to people. When you are a foreigner somewhere, most people are already quite interested in talking to you. If you are quite nice, then the people will also be nice to you. SH: Is this kind of “Gute Kinderstube” (good upbringing, good manners) a universal idea? Is there a basic element of courtesy and good manners that all people are taught by their parents, regardless of where you’re from? And that helps reach out to other people. SS: That’s also an interesting point. Yeah, I would think so. In China, as well. And some have it and some don’t. But what makes it a bit different is that maybe our “Gute Kinderstube” might differ from the one in China. But they also have their own social habits and rules. Also, some basic sense of how people treat each other is important. SH: What languages do you speak, Sascha? SS: Besides German, I also speak English, a bit of Chinese, and Polish because I was also a plant manager in Poland for a few years. 86 9 Interview with Sascha Singer <?page no="87"?> SH: What kind of languages did you communicate when you were in China or Poland? SS: Mainly English. However, the further you are away from big cities, the use of English as a communication language is dramatically decreasing. So, you must have some Chinese. I learned a little Chinese. I have to say that it’s really not good for eight years because I have been working around the clock. This shouldn’t be an excuse, but I would survive with it. If I go to China, I can travel through the country and get what I need. So, Can I do a contract negotiation? Absolutely not. SH: I appreciate that. But the question then becomes how to select the right people for overseas assignments, such as expert managers. What role do language skills play when you send somebody to China, Poland, or France? SS: Considering my work experience, I would say you have to speak English fluently. Most of the day, I speak around 60 to 70 per cent in English. Typically, we start the meetings in English and ask if somebody English-speaking is there. If not, we can switch to German. But English is the common language in business. SH: Is there something that you would call cultural fluency? What I mean by that is something besides language or communication skills, something that makes managers more adaptable to understanding different cultures. Something that will enable you to adapt to the Chinese way of living. SS: One thing I have witnessed, especially during my time in China and other countries, is that some people are showing off. “Please make space. Here I am. I’m the best. I know everything.” They are probably not very welcome in either society or country. What always worked out for me was to have grown up in a very basic family; I wouldn’t say poor, but very basic. By doing so, I also know the difference between whether you can spend more money on something or have to work months to afford it. That always keeps you grounded, at least me. If you keep that in mind, lay it a little bit low and not always put yourself first, you will get what I mean. I learned that when taking a team picture in China, you can’t immediately tell who the boss is. In my 24 years, I’ve never tried to show off that I’m the boss or that I know something better and I’m the best. Therefore, I want to highlight that that’s something very important. We call it “Bodenständig” in German, which translates to being down to earth. SH: With that kind of idea, Sascha, do you think that everybody can be an intercultural leader, or does leadership depend on rank and position? SS: You get the manager by rank, or you are a leader by heart. When you get promoted to a position, you become the boss. Especially in China, people respect that you are the boss. But as in almost every country, there is a significant difference between simply being the boss and having people follow your orders versus being a successful leader who earns genuine trust and loyalty, which greatly impacts performance. Let me tell you a story about that. We were building up the plant in Shanghai and were under a lot of pressure to deliver. We are hiring people, but we still have two people fewer. That was a problem, and I asked everyone to work in the production and support the people there. In this culture, it was common for the big boss to never get his hands 9 Interview with Sascha Singer 87 <?page no="88"?> dirty in production. I said, “Okay, I don’t think that’s right. We will work all together, whether successful or not.” So, we were working together with all our operators day and night. The employees really appreciated that and gave feedback. They don’t want to have to feel that someone is the great boss, and the others are just normal people. We really built up a team. After a successful launch, we all celebrated with a big barbecue party. That’s when we started to form a really great team that likes to work with each other. This only works if you don’t rely on hierarchy but instead genuinely aim to unite people and work together towards achieving a common goal. SH: Trust seems to be an important issue in intercultural relations. How do you establish that across cultures? SS: That depends on culture. Either way, it’s always hard work to earn and keep trust. It can take years to build it up, and you can lose it in seconds. Especially in China, the topic of not losing face is crucial. To be honest, we also don’t like that here in Austria. One common rule I have always followed in all these years is never to search for the guilty one. Always get the team together to learn from it and try to do it tomorrow better. With time, you have to really walk-the-talk here; with time, people will open up. After three years working in China, I still have it in mind; one of the team members said, “Okay, I made that decision. It was wrong.” He said that in front of the others. That’s the ultimate way of showing trust that you are able to say something like that. I said, “Okay, thanks for speaking up. Let’s sit together and figure out what we can improve together.” If you reach that level, then you are on the right way. SH: And how did you do that? So, walking-the-talk, can you explain that maybe a bit more? SS: I got a very good sentence from a labour union guy. He said that if you walk through the company as a leader or a manager, you look into the company with two eyes, but hundreds stare at you. Day by day, you have to do the right thing, even if you think nobody’s watching. That’s what we call integrity. Because there is always somebody looking at you, I always try to be the good example I would like to see in my employees. And for my team, I always try to be the leader I hoped I would have had when I started working. SH: Sascha, thank you so much for this wonderful interview. Aha! This is Interesting • When people feel appreciated, they are more likely to cooperate and share their thoughts freely. This is why showing genuine respect and care for those you are responsible for is a key ingredient in intercultural leadership. This does not mean we need to become best friends with everyone, but others will be quite attentive to whether we genuinely listen to what they have to say, understand their needs, and welcome diverse viewpoints. What goes around comes around, and, as Sascha 88 9 Interview with Sascha Singer <?page no="89"?> suggests, showing honest concern for others, even if we do not share the same cultural background, is the basis for building trustful relationships. • When sent abroad, your areas of responsibility usually widen. Instead of being responsible for a clearly defined set of people or tasks (e.g. when you oversee a department), people across the company will all of a sudden approach you for input. By implication, even if you are the more quiet and introverted type, you need to hone your communication skills. We shouldn’t overdo it, but be prepared to talk to people and ask questions. Politeness, etiquette, and good manners demonstrate respect for local sensitivities. You signal that you value building good relationships. • For Sascha, “Bodenständigkeit” (or being down to earth) is an important aspect of successful leadership across cultures. Boastfulness has short legs in intercultural settings. We are more likely to be met with suspicion. Down to earth leaders, by contrast, seek advice, ask questions (to which they do not already have the answer) and are okay to be flexible in their approach. In short, we embrace cultural differences as a learning process. Humbleness, groundedness, and authenticity make you much more approachable as we focus on relationships rather than rank or power. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What is the role of self-worth in motivations for intercultural engagement? • How do global leadership qualities unfold when we have a positive (or negative) sense of ourselves? 2) Leadership in East Asia • When in Asia, there is not just the “Korean” or the “Chinese” guy. There are many different Koreans and Chinese in each province and region. Why does Sascha warn us of over-simplification when dealing with local staff ? • In terms of responsibility, what do you need to be prepared for when setting up a company in an (then) emerging economy such as China? • Why should we emphasise being a team member even in hierarchically organised business environments such as China (rather than showing off rank or position)? • How does the concept of “face” influence behaviour and decision-making in China? • Why might learning from mistakes as a team rather than searching for individual responsibility for failures be useful? 9 Interview with Sascha Singer 89 <?page no="91"?> 10 Interview with NC Prakash Sierk Horn (SH): Prakash, thank you so much for meeting with me today. Perhaps you’d like to introduce yourself to my readers. NC Prakash (NP): I work as the Vice President of Human Resources for Rohde and Schwarz for Asia-Pacific, which also includes Greater China. At present, I oversee HR for the Middle East and Africa as well. Principally, I get involved a lot with human resource topics, which means HR, talent acquisition and management, succession planning, learning and development, and these kinds of things for a region. So, as part of my work at Rohde and Schwarz, I travel a lot to these countries and interact with the employees face-to-face. SH: Thank you so much for this very brief introduction, Prakash. I’m wondering, in your role, you must have a lot of international contacts. So, what are the key ingredients for leaders to be successful across cultures? NP: I think when engaging across cultures, there must be a little bit of cultural awareness of the country that you’re going to. This would be really helpful. There are specific cultural norms in certain countries and very different situations where you may be required to be sensitive about intercultural aspects. For example, in some countries, there are specific rules and customs to follow during an interview. Then, if it’s business communications, there are also contacts within the company for that. So, if you’re going to meet a customer and you’re from a different country, some adjustments will be necessary. The first thing is to at least have some sort of cultural awareness of that country’s sensitivity. This might be related to their culture, race, religion, or gender roles, for instance. It is about being more aware of such things. Secondly, especially in the Asia-Pacific region - except for Australia, which follows a Western model - building rapport is very important before discussing business. You never start business topics immediately after a quick “Hello.” That’s what I have noticed, and I may be wrong but when I’m in Europe, we can go into the topic much faster. It’s like “Hello, how are you? ” “Everything’s good.” “Would you like something to drink? ” “Yes, please.” “Can we start the meeting? ” And this is the meeting. So, this is what happens in this part of the world. However, when you look at Asia, the rapport portion can be a little bit more extended depending on the country you’re in. For example, in Malaysia, in my own experience, rapport-building can be a little bit more, including asking a bit about one’s well-being and family if you know them enough. You go into all of that, and then afterwards, you go into the business topic. I noticed it is the same for Thailand and Vietnam. Therefore, rapport-building takes some time. I define that as a bit of bonding, communication, and sensitivity toward them. For example, “I heard that recently, you were successful with this particular thing, congratulations! ” Or you heard that they had a baby or something, so you show some interest by saying, “Congratulations, we <?page no="92"?> heard about it. How is the baby? How is fatherhood? ” So, this is all allowed in our place. But on the contrary, I know that you don’t discuss such topics in Australia. There are a lot of personal issues versus private topics. But I think there’s a nice blend between them in Asia, which you need to know how to do. Then, the third thing that I wanted to mention is that if you rush to ask about sensitive topics in Asia, you may realise that they are giving you a reply, but the reply may be indirect. So, if you took that as a yes, you may be wrong. Because, for example, you spoke about something and said, “Okay, we got a deal, right? ” And the person replies like, say, “I think it’s good, but maybe we can discuss it a little bit more.” If you’re from Asia, you know, they aren’t ready for this. They’ve some hesitations, and you may need to ask if there are any questions - “Do you have any issues? ” I’ve noticed when it doesn’t work, it’s because the other person assumed, “I already struck a deal, and that person has said yes.” But in Asia, as a custom, they often don’t know how to say “no” because they don’t want to be impolite. This often happens when someone doesn’t directly say “no,” but the other person doesn’t realise it because there was some hesitation due to concerns. And then, if you thought you closed the deal and left the place, you later find out that you didn’t make the deal. Then you wonder what happened. It was because you weren’t sensitive to the fact that they were sending you indirect signals. This can sometimes be challenging for people from abroad who are coming to Asia. They often struggle to see that and cannot understand it. SH: What about Singapore, then? You know, Singapore is a multicultural environment, so I wonder, how do you create rapport in a country with such a mix of cultures? NP: That’s the thing. It’s a bit sensitive to say, but this happened when our Prime Minister met with the new Prime Minister of Malaysia. Datuk Sri Anwar Ibrahim. Our Prime Minister was interested in the topic of water and a few other topics. The Singaporean style is a very nice blend. It’s a little bit of Asia but also the Western world. So, we can go into topics quite fast. Therefore, our Prime Minister went into the topic pretty fast (“serious discussion 1,2,3,4,” then only will you ask about Aziah (wife of the Malaysian Prime Minister) and the family.” I can’t remember the exact words, but he was trying to say, “We didn’t do small talk.” While Singapore is a lot faster than the rest of Asia, there is still a bit of rapport-building in general. SH: I really like that you picked up on rapport-building, Prakash. What role do communication skills play in this kind of Asian setting? NP: I think language itself doesn’t necessarily play a key role. If you happen to know the language, it’s an advantage, but if not, it isn’t a deal breaker. If you’re from a different country, this is actually advantageous because they see you as the expert, and that’s why you are there. So, for example, a German is coming over to Thailand. It’s fine because he is perceived as the technical expert coming in. There is no need for him to speak the language. But if you want to win them over, learning a few greetings can be advantageous. For example, if you’re going to Thailand and meet your Thai 92 10 Interview with NC Prakash <?page no="93"?> colleagues, before you even shake hands, you can say, “Sawadikap.” And if the person’s name is Anusak, for example, you can say, “Sawadikap Khun Anusak.” So, Khun is an honorific way of addressing someone. So, if you say, “Sawadikap Khun Anusak, how are you? ” They like it because, instead of just shaking hands normally, you can finish with this combination. Knowing such simple greetings can be enough, like in India saying “Namaste” and in Indonesia, to be able to say, “Selamat Pagi, Selamat Petang,” “Selamat Malam” in Malaysia, or in Bali, “Om Swastir Astu.” By simply saying starting greetings, you can start building an instant rapport with the other person. Language per se, to answer your question, is not necessary. Of course, if you’re going to be there for the long run, knowing the language at a certain level would be helpful. SH: So, if you’re recruiting somebody from Germany or bringing somebody over from Germany to Southeast Asia, what kind of communication skills are you looking for? Does he or she need to be a good communicator? NP: It’s never a great idea to parachute anyone over to the country and then expect them to do that. And then, they may definitely not succeed. So, it starts in Germany by vetting the candidates and choosing who’s coming. Do they have the needed social skills? I mean, what kind of a style do they already have? So, an analysis or a review of the candidates is important. Someone who’s really not pleasant in Germany is not going to come over to Asia and suddenly become the most pleasant person. So, whoever is doing the recruitment or the assessment will already see if they have the skills to fit. There must be some sort of attitudinal characteristics and competencies that fit into the particular position. And then assess their general interpersonal skills. If companies are sensitive enough, they send them for intercultural training, for example, to learn more about that country’s culture. Because not just reading the political situation but understanding some of the cultural norms before they actually get posted would be useful because they come with a certain knowledge. However, nothing beats actually being on the ground. But then having the preliminaries like that can be a nice introduction before they get posted. But as I said, you can always have a wonderful person with great interpersonal capabilities in Germany as well. I mean, there will be good, bad, ugly behaviours everywhere. So, it’s about being aware that they also fit into a different place. But again, it also depends on what kind of positions we are talking about. For example, if you’re going into a sales position, then the whole interpersonal context is critical. But if you’re in a technical role, what is there to be worried about? The person comes in, you need the expertise to be deployed on the ground. You bring a broadcast guy to install transmitters. Nobody needs to know how much he can develop a rapport there. It’s about, “Can he go in? ” And then he goes into his work and he gets it done. That’s good enough. SH: Prakash, I’m really interested in what you have said about the decisions or pre-decisions that have taken place in Germany. Are all of those who have been sent over successful because they’re socially competent? Or do some people fail? And if they fail, why do they fail? 10 Interview with NC Prakash 93 <?page no="94"?> NP: Yeah, of course. Sometimes, you have a mixed bag because we do not always have everyone deployed here. People are coming for business trips and all of that. Some people succeed because, even if they aren’t always right, being objective-driven and focusing on their goals helps them avoid failure. They may not be right, because people might think your communication skills suck, but the job still gets done. But then, if they had a choice, they wouldn’t want to have dinner with you or go for a drink because they say, “This guy is a piece of shit” or “is hard-nosed.” They just wouldn’t want to. So, the issue is whether you are liked or disliked. It won’t be because you can get your job done. But then again, if you want to make an impression, that would be a different matter, I think. SH: Do you think that there’s a thing such as culture fluency? We talked about languages and communication skills, which are essential for doing business wherever you are. But is this something people have, like a special skill of reading the air of a specific culture, such as Singaporean or Malaysian culture? NP: Yes, I think there is. I believe that fluency or competency takes time. I’ve noticed that people can stay in a country for a very long time and still not have it. Why? Because they aren’t interested. In many countries, I’ve seen many colleagues and expats, even Singaporeans abroad. Some people are interested in the country’s culture, and attending events, and there are some who then only hang out in the expat colony. They will try to imitate, for example, if you are from a country, let’s say country X. You go over to this place, you will only interact with country X people and country X events. You like it that way, and then you want to be the boss to the other people. And it might work if you’re very senior, and then the company just looks upon you for your expertise. But regarding the fluency part, you know, there is such a thing. If you are interested, you would rather explore the country and try to get to know the people. But I’ve noticed some people only interact superficially. In Singapore, I’ve seen that as well. They would only stay at the same place. I’ve asked a couple of my friends, with whom I widened my network a little bit with a lot of communities, because of my interest in arts outside of my work. I’ve asked some of them, “Have you ever been to this place? ” They replied, “No, I’ve never been to this place.” I said, “You’ve been in Singapore for so many years. Then where do you go? ” “Well, I hang around mainly in Orchard Road.” That’s where their condo is. So I said, “Well, haven’t you seen how interesting it is if you went to one of the towns? ” Because they may have Singaporean events such as the Hungry Ghost Festival. So that can be quite fun to watch when you’re in the town because there’ll be shows like Getai or puppet shows, for example. During the Muslim month, if you go to Geylang, there will be many markets there. You really can enjoy yourself. And during the days leading up to the Indian festival of Deepavali, being in Little India, you can enjoy the lights and buzz. At the same time, you will realise that you will learn much more about all these cultures. And that might be useful. 94 10 Interview with NC Prakash <?page no="95"?> There are times when you don’t have to be culturally sensitive if you are going to drive major change. So, some people don’t want to be sensitive because they’re there to make a change. And then that’s a hard-nosed approach. It may work for some people. But for our company, I don’t think it does. However, I’ve noticed that there are people who do that. They say, “I just come in. I want to do the job. I’m not here to make friends.” Sometimes, this is done in some companies because they want to make difficult choices and changes. And it was seen as a major change. If I were to use such an example, I would say that it’s more like Kurt Lewin’s change model, “unfreeze, change, refreeze.” You go down there, you unfreeze the situation, you want the change, and then you refreeze them into the new norm and move on. It’s a very different approach, I suppose. In our company, we want to drive innovation and certain things stemming from our corporate guidelines, such as our strategies and company values. But we are sensitive to the fact that we must also adjust to the respective country. It means that local celebrations are important. We shouldn’t have Oktoberfest in Singapore just because Germans celebrate it. We have Oktoberfest celebrations, but we also have some other celebrations, like Chinese New Year. In Singapore, there’s a Chinese New Year thing where everyone will toss all these things, and for some of my German friends, it’s very overwhelming that you toss the ingredients and mess up the table. Why? You could eat the dish and mess up the whole table, but each thing tossed means something. This is for prosperity, this is for this, this is for that, and so on. SH: So cultural fluency is important for some positions but not so important for others? NP: And for companies, it depends on the firm. Like I said, sometimes you are there to drive change and not build rapport. There can be situations where people are like that. I’m not going to take a dig at my competitors, but I know that some of them do it in that way, which is a much harder approach to change. For Rohde & Schwarz, I think our approach has always been centred around the fact that we must be sensitive to local norms and have a more humane approach because it’s a family-owned company. That’s something that Rohde & Schwarz has, and I like that very much about our company. But I have friends from different industries, and I also know how hard it can be. SH: What kind of things do your company pay attention to, Prakash, when hiring or bringing in people from abroad or when hiring your people to go, for instance, to Germany? I’m sure it goes in both directions. NP: The key thing is deployment, then we want to see that the person has an outlook, a perspective that is beyond your country in terms of your ambition, as well as your sensitivity. For instance, I want to go to Germany and grow in my position. I have that goal, for example, and then the second must be about what I can learn more about our company in Germany. What’s taking place? The third thing is that I need to know about our German culture, how it is different from my country, and stuff like that. So, for us, we look at the interoperability of the candidate. Can he move beyond that? Does he have the perspective? We had cases where I have told people that they didn’t qualify. I’ll give you a vivid example without mentioning the country. One candidate said he 10 Interview with NC Prakash 95 <?page no="96"?> was keen to be posted out of his country, and he was attending a training program. He was telling one of my colleagues, “Can you get this kind of food? ” And later on, he came to see me, and he said, “I want to be deployed for a regional position.” So, I said, “I don’t think so. Do I need to deploy you in every country, and everyone needs to cater to your food requirements? Or do you need to adapt and accept that food might not be cooked in the same style as in your home country? You have to make some adjustments to show you can adapt. If you were culturally adaptable and agile enough to be able to be deployed, then I would consider.” So, I was just giving him that example, but other competency factors also play a role. Hence, that agility is also important, that you are able to move beyond your boundaries. Then, of course, other factors like job or technical competency, interpersonal skills, leadership, fit to the job, and team context. When he’s deployed there, what’s the team like? Is this going to be a good and reasonable fit? You can try to match it, but it will never be perfect. It’s about doing the best you can. SH: I agree with you, Prakash. You look for things like leadership, communication skills, cultural adaptability, and adjustability. NP: Yes, exactly. And as you try that, sometimes it doesn’t happen, because for some people it can be simple things that decide whether something is hard for them. I didn’t experience many cases like that, but I have heard of them. For instance, you move and then suddenly realise that it’s winter in this country, and you just can’t cope with the weather. But I don’t think people quit over cultural topics; they quit over organisations. The sensitivity, of course, if it strikes religion, can cross boundaries a lot. If you’re culturally not sensitive, but the topic or deal is related to religion, it can be a deal breaker for people because it would not work for some people if you do that. But beyond that, I think it should be okay. SH: My final question to you is how important trust-building in is doing business in your region. Is it an important issue? And what is trust? And how can it be achieved in this kind of cross-cultural context we’ve been talking about? NP: I think trust is something that is extremely important for any part of the world especially in Asia. But how that trust is achieved, is a whole dynamic altogether. It starts from the impressions, like that you are friendly, approachable, and sensitive. A little bit of that is quite important. But as I said, you may bring some aspects that are not the same. And that’s also welcome. Because, for example, if you are from a country that is a bit more aggressive by nature, they already know this, and they expect that you are, and they accept that. But then their trust is also built sometimes after office hours. And that’s a rather hard part because you have to know what works in that country. For example, as I’ve worked with my German counterparts, I know that our dialogues in Germany with my colleagues can be so hard, right? But it’s so detached afterwards. After work, we can have a beer or a drink. And then I just realised that my friends aren’t unhappy with me. Disagreement was over the topic, not the individual. So that’s 96 10 Interview with NC Prakash <?page no="97"?> very beautiful about my experience with Germans. I’ve noticed the Germans have a beautiful way of, we’re talking about a topic now, and it’s separated. They were just hard on this topic not the person themselves. In the beginning, I didn’t know, and I thought that was the end of our relationship. And then it was like, “Hey, Prakash, let’s go for a drink.” So I knew this guy was okay with me. You know, we’re going for a drink. The same applies in Asia, in that as much as everything is good, they like to see what happens after work. It can be quite different in different countries. For example, I’ve noticed in Germany, you can hang out for a longer time. They prefer to hang out longer and have more beers. But in Singapore, they like to finish by 9, 9.30, 10 o’clock, for example, because they want to go back to their families. Then, in Thailand, it’s like hanging out in bars or whatever can be useful, even in some contexts for them, such as when we all go and have a drink, watch a game, football match, or whatever it is. In Japan, building rapport after work through having a drink and eating together can be very important. In Malaysia and Indonesia, it has to be much more because they are strongly Islamic environments. Still going for dinner together in a decent place and having casual conversations is very powerful. In Malaysia and Indonesia, if you want to show your rapport, you join them during the fasting month and are also not eating. During the time they are not eating, you don’t. And then in the evening when they break fast, you join them to break fast. They see that as a very powerful gesture. So, during the fasting month, companies actually organise such dinners with customers where they invite them to break fast together. So, that’s how it’s done in Malaysia and Indonesia. Since ancient times, eating together has been a huge bonding activity. In Indonesia and Malaysia particularly, because they are Islamic countries, suggesting to them, “Let’s go for a beer” would be the dumbest thing to do. They wouldn’t want to do that in their country. It’s more like, okay, we have dinner together. But during the fasting month, if you show sensitivity to break fasting, they consider that to be a very nice gesture on their part. This is what I mean by other aspects that can also be important to build trust and friendship. So I would try to combine trust together with friendship because trust is a broad word; I think it applies to many other things because if you screwed up on a deal or agreement, then the trust is broken. It’s a technical topic, right? But trust, together with friendship, is something that you do with work. And then after the work, what do you do - as I said, they’re slightly different in different countries. I’ve noticed that in Australia, going for a beer after work is common. Before Xi Jinping came to power, entertainment in China also involved a lot of drinking and socialising. President Xi cracked down on corruption, so things became more organised. However, after work, people still drink together, similar to Japan, with toasts and drinking contests. In some of these countries, how much you can drink is an important thing. But then all of that builds trust and friendship. And you close your deal like that. Purely after work, okay, we have a good deal. And if you go, all you do is talk about business, and people will see that this guy is just all business and not friendly. 10 Interview with NC Prakash 97 <?page no="98"?> After work, if you just focus on business and don’t socialise, people might see you as unfriendly SH: Prakash, thank you so much for these wonderful Southeast Asian impressions. I appreciate your taking the time to bring Asia to my readers. Aha! This is Interesting • Do not underestimate the importance of small talk in a business context. Prakash reminds us that starting a conversation can vary significantly across cultures. While building rapport is crucial before getting down to business anywhere in the world, how you actually do it depends on where you are. While in many Western cultures, a short exchange of pleasantries (e.g. remarks about the weather) suffices, in the Asia-Pacific region, you would rather not dive straight into business. Here, there is more involved in building rapport. In countries such as Malaysia, Thailand or Vietnam there is more of a blend between personal and private matters. Talking about the family situation and loved ones is seen to create a positive atmosphere. • While important on many occasions, cultural fluency is not necessarily a must-have attribute for everybody at all times. It really depends on the company culture and what a company wants to achieve. Prakash makes the point that for some positions, sensitivity to local customs and beliefs is not that important to create local rapport, with engineering jobs (as opposed to some working in sales) or short-term assignments being cases in point. Then, there are cases that require hard decisions, such as when implementing change, compliance issues, or company-wide standards. Under such circumstances, being overly sensitive to local ways of doing things might require taking a back seat. • In many Asian business environments, after-work socialising is common. Drinking and eating out are of high social importance (and often have a less pragmatic touch than in many Western cultures). It is seen as an integral part of building relationships outside formal work settings. Wherever you go (e.g., venues such as karaoke bars or sports parlours), observing local customs is as important as in more formal settings. The sensitivity to breaking fasting in predominantly Islamic countries such as Indonesia or Malaysia can go a long way in creating rapport. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are “attitudes”? • Why is “being flexible about one’s attitudes” easier said than done? • What is Cultural Intelligence (CQ), and how is it different from Emotional Intelligence (EQ)? 98 10 Interview with NC Prakash <?page no="99"?> 2) Leadership in East Asia • What are good ways to “break the ice” in a Southeast Asian business context? • Why is interpreting affirmation styles in Asia so difficult for many Westerners? • Though English is widely spoken in Southeast Asia, how is learning a few greeting words in a local language helpful? • Why is proactivity in breaking out of expat communities such an important part of developing cultural fluency in an Asian context? • When working abroad, especially in Asia, why is it important to be flexible about what you eat? • Why is after-work socialising so important in an Asian business context? 10 Interview with NC Prakash 99 <?page no="101"?> 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader Sierk Horn (SH): Thank you so much for your time today. Perhaps you’d like to introduce yourself. Anon: Yes, sure. I went to primary school in London in the mid-1980s because of my father’s work, so this was my first kind of experience abroad as a small child, shortly after the Falkland War. Then, I went back to Japan; I had an ordinary student lifestyle. Then, I joined a large Japanese company and worked there for about eight years, including two years of doing my MBA. In ca. 2010, the management in Germany decided to transfer me to the headquarters in Germany. When I moved to Germany, my first mission was to establish the Corporate Strategy Department division, and I was assigned to become the first “Head of Corporate Strategy Department.” But at that time, our German company was a purely Europeanised company. I think they had one or two Americans, but I was the only Asian manager coming from the Far East who managed important projects in Germany. And I think the people were a bit shocked. I could tell some German colleagues were clearly frustrated by this, “Some younger guy who can’t speak German is coming and telling people what to do.” And I didn’t even know what to do at first. But for the next two years, I was doing that. Until I was asked, “Would you like to continue to do corporate strategy or take care of the business properly? ” I told my management that I wanted to focus on the business side. And I did so for several years. Then, I became responsible for the exit of our company. We decided to go for exit by seeking several new owners. SH: How large is the company you’re currently managing? Anon: Our company’s global turnover is about 200 to 300 million euros, depending on the year. I’m based in Germany, but I’m travelling around. The company has less than 1,000 people. After the Japanese company acquired us, they sent lots of Japanese people to the company. The group company and our company are independent, but we have more than 10 Japanese employees in Germany. SH: What language do you speak in your company? Anon: That’s a good question. Officially, it’s English. My Japanese colleagues basically do not speak German. Depending on the level, it will be a mixture when I talk to people and when I’m the only Japanese person in the meeting. Sometimes, we conduct the meetings in German, like, you know, with the Betriebsrat or unions, sometimes in English, because we also have colleagues from the US and Asia who are not based in Germany. Basically, yeah, it’s a mixture. SH: So, among your compatriots, you speak Japanese, but the moment you engage with Germans or non-Japanese, you switch to English or German? Anon: That depends on the level of English my colleagues speak. When my German colleagues speak better English than I do German, it makes more sense to speak in <?page no="102"?> English. That’s the situation. I might speak 90 % or even entirely in German with person A. But if you give me some kind of training opportunity, it would be good for me to speak German. Some German colleagues will do so, and that’s great since I don’t have the opportunity to brush up on my German skills otherwise. SH: How important do you think is it to speak German to your German employees or colleagues if you operate in Germany? What is the role of language? Anon: I believe it’s tremendously important, and some people underestimate the impact of language. I told them, for example, if they have an Indian colleague coming to Japan and talking to the people of the workers council, the trade unions or shop floor people in English, how do you think the Japanese people will react? When I use this example, the Japanese will say, “Oh, it won’t work.” But it’s similar in Germany as well. I think the people on the shop floor are similar to our colleagues in Japan. And if they don’t like to have it in Japan, why would you do that in German? I think that at least the Japanese people who are going to stay in Germany for four or five years will need to make an effort to learn German. My German level is somewhere close between C1 and C2. Though I can’t say my German is tremendously good, I understand the news and can read the newspaper. SH: What inspired you to learn German? Did you tell yourself, “Look, if I work here, I need to understand better what’s going on here? ” Anon: Sure, learning a language is not a sprint but a marathon. I can be tired sometimes. I still study around 30 minutes to one hour every day. For me, it’s about showing the respect to the German society. I think you understand what you’re talking about when you speak in German. When I joined the German government delegation trip, we just spoke in German. So, if I were not to speak any German, I wouldn’t have had this opportunity. I’m not saying that if you speak German, you’re going to be invited. But it’s a mutual interest. And you will benefit from learning the language, even if it’s not perfect. SH: So, language is part of communication, isn’t it? Although these are different things. How important do you think communication skills are for managing the people in Germany? Anon: I mean, looking at it from different perspectives, what is communication? There’s internal communication and external communication. So, I think you’re talking about internal communication. In Germany, the culture is very different. Japan and Germany are not similar, not at all. Very different. Communication in Japan, as we say, is to read the air or to read between the lines. People just say about 10 % or 20 % out loud about what they actually want to say but still expect someone to understand. They tend to do this with their German colleagues. In my opinion, German people tend to accept what we say. Therefore, you need to explain a bit more, and you even need sometimes to have a conflict to get to an agreement. What I think is important is “Überreden, & Überzeugen.” We don’t have this difference in Japanese. In Japanese both “Überreden” und “Überzeugen,” would be translated as “Settoku suru,” probably. 102 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader <?page no="103"?> But “Überzeugen” means people digest what you say. On the contrary, “Überreden,” you will do with your position of power. Japanese sometimes tend to do “Überreden,” not “Überzeugen.” When I have different opinions, I talk with them a lot. More importantly, some traditional Japanese people tend to spend a lot of power on internal communication. Out of 100, they spend 70 % to 80 % of the time talking to their colleagues internally. But I do the opposite. I talk more with external people, suppliers, customers, government officials, university professors, and so on. From the Japanese viewpoint, I’m doing less for internal communication. It is true that I start to think these days that I should have spent more time for the internal communications. Having said so, external factors have a bigger impact. So, I believe communication is tremendously important and the key for management. SH: We have communication skills, we have language skills, but we also have intercultural skills. Is there something in your experience called cultural fluency? Anon: It’s an interesting question because I have been thinking about it for the last few months. When I started living in Germany or when I was studying in London, I thought intercultural management was important. Then, after six or seven years in Germany, I started to think intercultural management was not so important. But now, again, I start to think it’s important. So, it’s like a wave. I thought it was important, not important, but again, important. But why is that? Initially, I thought I didn’t have intercultural capability. Still, when I saw how the German colleagues were interacting with the Japanese or the other way around, I started thinking, “Perhaps I might have a bit more intercultural competence than I thought. I am a bit like the translator, not just for the language, but for understanding the cultural differences.” Sometimes, I translate between Japanese and English and between English and Japanese-German. Including German can be challenging, so I often stick to English translations. On one occasion, we hired a very good translator. She understood everything, the language, but people didn’t understand what she was talking about because she couldn’t understand the difference between the cultures. She understands everything between Japan and the U.S. but not between Japan and Germany. So, people told me, “She is very nice, friendly and highly competent, but it just doesn’t work.” This explains how it works: Do you know “Tatami,” the Japanese mats? Many people can “swim” only on tatami or a carpet but teach others how to swim. Intercultural interaction is a bit like that. You swim in the intercultural ocean without your knowl‐ edge, and you think it’s easy, but people who have never swam in this intercultural ocean won’t understand what you’re talking about. And that’s when it gets dangerous, especially for people with immature international exposure. I have two groups of people that I find very tricky: the German and the Japanese. Germans who stayed in Japan for several years usually speak good Japanese, but not up to the highest standard. Still, they believe they understand everything about Japan, its strengths and weaknesses. And the same goes for the Japanese; they stay here for several years, have only B1 or B2 level German skills, and talk about Germany like they know everything. 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader 103 <?page no="104"?> I personally don’t talk about Japan or Germany like that since I know there are lots of areas I don’t understand. Humbleness often grows from specific experiences, and I’ve noticed that those who possess it tend to lead intercultural communication. I apologise if I sound arrogant, but I’ve observed that people who’ve spent time in Japan, particularly those still adjusting to the culture, sometimes lack this humbleness. The length of stay is hereby not important. Even within a year or two, individuals with good judgement can grasp this concept. However, the challenge arises with those who lack such insight and instead rely solely on the length of their stay or their language proficiency to justify their understanding. This approach can be risky. Learning a language or travelling to another country is one thing, but that doesn’t automatically make you an intercultural leader. SH: In your experience, what makes somebody interculturally aware so that they are able to swim in this ocean, as you pointed out so nicely? Anon: Right. I think there is self-confidence, your upbringing, and the combination of the two. For example, I hate to see Japanese who are talking badly about Japan in a foreign country. They say, “Oh, Japanese are stupid.” I often complain about Japan, but I love Japan. I’m Japanese, and I love Germany. It’s difficult to choose. I think the balance is important. People who have self-confidence, are happy within their own skin, and tend to have good intercultural senses, even when they stay in Japan for just one year or less. There was this one Austrian guy who wanted to go to Japan, so we supported him a bit. His Japanese level was basic before he went to Japan. I think when he came back to Europe after ca. ten months, I think he took the N1 level Japanese language test, which is equivalent to the C2 level. That’s amazing. And I was surprised, “Oh, your Japanese is too good.” It was impolite, but I think these kinds of people have hidden self-confidence but are not arrogant. Confidence is important. SH: Now, you introduced yourself as somebody like a boundary spanner, able to communicate and liaise between both the German and the Japanese side, or the English and the Japanese side and so on. How did you grow into that position? Anon: I think you need someone who accompanies you on your way to learn about another culture. Somebody who is able to tell you, “Look, this is what the Germans actually mean.” One way of establishing this kind of intercultural competence is to have somebody explain what is happening. I am quite Japanese, but for the friendship part, I think I tend to have non-Japanese friends these days. I always engage with German friends, regardless of gender. Therefore, I think I’m influenced. It’s like the successful German people in Japan tend to have Japanese wives. I don’t see so many Japanese guys having German wives. And I don’t know why. I have the feeling that if the Japanese guys had German wives, it might be easier for them to integrate to the German society. I believe this is absolutely true since you need somebody to go home to. Then, you could ask your partner to explain it to you if you 104 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader <?page no="105"?> had a conversation with a German and you just didn’t understand. We call it a long-hair dictionary. But it doesn’t only refer to the vocabulary, but also the cultural aspects. SH: But I gather that you’re now in the same position. You explained your experiences to your Japanese colleagues. What is happening in Germany? You basically took on that role, didn’t you? Anon: It’s a sensitive matter, but I have to address an important point. When it comes to the challenges faced by the German people in Japan and the Japanese in Germany, things are tougher for the Japanese in Germany. This is because the Japanese tend to respect Germany as a stronger country or even better country than Japan. In Germany, people’s interest in Japan, besides business transactions, is not that high. When a European person speaks in Japan, I notice that others, while I can’t be certain if they’re truly listening, at least appear physically attentive and become quiet. In Germany, if you can’t speak the language but try to speak up, you could be ignored entirely, and you’re going to be told you’re incompetent, goodbye. So, in that sense, as you mentioned, you see lots of successful Germans in Japan. Have you seen many successful Japanese in Germany? I haven’t, unfortunately, at least not in the private sector. Not, besides the Japanese companies. Yes, I think this is a cultural thing, and also the nature of the people, the Japanese and Germans. SH: Let’s look at intercultural leadership from a slightly different angle. Many would argue that trust is an important issue, at least from a German perspective. Is trust an issue in your job? Anon: I think trust is a bit associated with the autonomy of the business, right? When you’re trusted, you gain the autonomy. I have the feeling there’s a substantial difference in how to gain trust from the German management, managing a German company, and the Japanese management, managing a Japanese company. I used to work with the German staff for nearly ten years. Trust could be obtained if you keep up with the budget, sales, profit, and compliance. In short, we don’t have to negotiate all the time. The results are important. The German management doesn’t care that much about how you can achieve the result. In Japan, the process is sometimes more important than the results. Imagine you are travelling from Tokyo to Osaka. You can get there by train, by Shinkansen, or by bus. So, arriving in Osaka is about when you arrive, how you travel and how much you pay. It is very complex and much more than just the result of a travel. Japanese management would want to know, “Ah, you are in Shizuoka now! You’re in Nagoya now! ” This type of reporting process is very important in Japan. I find it easier to establish trust with Germans because it’s clear we agree on a goal and make the commitment. People don’t change the goal. With Japanese, we often don’t have this clear goal. In Germany, I had a conversation with my manager, who is British. He didn’t like one of the Japanese employees because he always reported these kinds of milestones to the top management. He said, “Just bring the result. I don’t need the report about the milestones.” 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader 105 <?page no="106"?> I think this shows that creating trust is very different between Germany and Japan. And another thing is their sense of commitment to loyalty. To stay with the organisation, commit to your boss, share your private time, and devote yourself. This is more important, perhaps, than sharing the milestone information with the Japanese management. Therefore, they go for golf on the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. This is a commitment and reporting of milestones. Then, these people tend to receive substantial trust from the organisation. That’s how I have observed it. SH: I suppose you also depend on the input you get from your employees. This then also becomes a matter of trust. Anon: Actually, gaining the trust of German colleagues was very difficult. To be honest with you, I feel like I always compare the American and the German culture. When I go to the US, they often say, “Oh, come to the party; we have the garden party next week.” And I go, but afterwards, I can’t deepen the friendship with these people that much. It’s quite often very superficial. So, they continued this garden party relationship for five years, ten years, and it’s very shallow. And they just say, “What’s up, what’s up? ” or whatever sometimes. It takes lots of time in Germany, sometimes three or four years. And then gradually, you’re going to be invited to the home party or birthday. Then, the relationship becomes very deep if you have mutual trust. But opening the door with the German colleagues was difficult. But once you get in, this is quite deep. And Japanese, in terms of comparing the relationship between the German perspective and the Japanese, I think they’re a bit like the middle between Germans and Americans. They’re kind, you invite them, and you will get invited to the party. And perhaps they would deepen the relationship a bit. However, they don’t extend the same openness to just everyone. So, this is how I observe, but it’s difficult. SH: What would your advice be for young students? What should they be doing to gain that level of intercultural competence you have? Anon: Well, in my case, it was a bit like an accident. I think you don’t have to go abroad all the time. But to study, work, or explore, spend two or three years somewhere else on the planet, and show interest. And just to understand, Germany is not the world, and the world is not Germany. Neither is Japan. When you have this kind of mindset, even if you don’t become an expert on the multicultural relationship between Germany and Japan, you can have at least the tolerance to accept the differences. To truly embrace this tolerance, you must accept these differences; you need to feel them, and you need to struggle a bit. In conclusion, my advice would be to go to a country where you can’t speak your language, and learn the local language, up to A2 or B1 level. SH: Thank you so much for your wonderful insights. 106 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader <?page no="107"?> Aha! This is Interesting • My interview partner emphasises the importance of “translators” in a linguistic sense and cultural nuances. These translators can help expat managers appreciate and respect local values and social norms. Such understanding ideally reduces the likelihood of intercultural blunders and perhaps even business failures. Organ‐ isationally, the very nature of this line of work means that translators should work at a very high leadership level, perhaps with a substantial influence on policymaking within the organisation. Boundary spanning should not be delegated to interpreters or (external) advisors who may be fluent in both languages (or more) but lack the deep cultural understanding necessary to navigate complex business contexts. • Practical translation is rooted in a deep grasp of cultural differences, which can only be cultivated by living and “struggling” in a foreign culture. Developing intercultural competence is, after all, not only about all the fun things when learning about other cultures. We must critically examine our cherished ways of doing things, our biases, and what they mean for interacting with others. This process is rarely plain sailing. There are no easy answers as you are thrown into landscapes full of moral or even ethical dilemmas that scupper deeply held beliefs. • While English is often the official language in internationally operating companies, meetings sometimes involve a mix of languages depending on who participates and what language abilities participants have. My interview partner advises us to be flexible about what languages we should use. And even switching between languages halfway through a conversation is a viable option. What complicates matters is what people expect from communication. Communication styles can vary between highor low-context, direct or indirect, or hierarchical and inclusive. Intercultural leaders should adapt to the locally prevailing expectations of what makes “good” communication. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are “boundary spanners,” and what is their role in bridging cultural differ‐ ences? • How can they help firms improve relationships with their stakeholders? • Is boundary spanning a top-management task? 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader 107 <?page no="108"?> 2) Leadership in East Asia • Does the firm my interview partner is working for have a clear language policy? • What possibly happens when different organisational layers use different lan‐ guages in their day-to-day communication? • How and why has my interview partner benefitted from learning German? • How do German and Japanese communication styles differ? • Japanese managers struggle with differentiating between “Überreden” (talking someone into something) and “Überzeugen” (convincing someone). What is their preferred communication style? What are the repercussions of this on German colleagues? • Why might it be important for Japanese firms to use the services of culturally sensitive “translators”? • What are the dangers of relying on people with immature international exposure? • Is the length of stay in a foreign country a good predictor for cultivating intercul‐ tural leadership competencies? Why possibly not? • When working towards goals, cultures are either result or process-orientated. In a German-Japanese context, how can this cause confusion in terms of trust? • How does my interview partner perceive personal and professional relation‐ ship-building in Germany? 108 11 Interview with a Japanese Thought Leader <?page no="109"?> 12 Interview with Bosco Novak Sierk Horn (SH): Perhaps the best way to start is, Bosco, could you please introduce yourself to my readers? Who are you? What is your background? Bosco Novak (BN): I actually finished my work life last year. I’m looking back at 40 years in the high-tech environment. My specialty has been communications and I’ve been deeply involved with the development of our world towards today’s connected world, both mobile networks as well as the development of the Internet and multimedia networks. Working with companies like Ericsson, Nokia, and most recently, Rohde and Schwarz, I’ve been responsible for developing equipment and deploying projects for high-tech communications networks, both communications networks for the public and specialised networks, such as air traffic and governments. One thing that is important in my life is that I have been involved in a lot of transformations of companies and industries. Both in the growth phase and the decline, for instance, when the subprime crisis hit or the internet bubble burst. Over the past 25 years, my responsibility has been management in the international context, having teams and customers, suppliers, and business partners from Australia to Chile across the world. SH: So your scope of work has been, by definition, international, if I’m not mistaken. BN: Yes, in the last 30 years, I’ve worked in an international environment. SH: What makes, in your perspective, with your experience, intercultural competent leadership or intercultural leadership successful? BN: I think there are two very fundamental issues. First of all, it’s about awareness: awareness about oneself and awareness about the way one thinks, feels, judges, and behaves. Each one of us is unique. Understanding myself is the basis before looking at other people. If I don’t understand myself, working in an international environment is very difficult because I don’t have a reference point. Secondly, it’s a lot about communication. When I say communication, I don’t mean just words. It is much more. It’s about how I act towards people and how I interact. It’s about observing. Communication is very much about listening. Because of my technology background, I always talk about having my antennas open as much as possible. Two-thirds of my time needs to be spent listening. That’s when I can absorb what’s happening in the world and that’s when I can act on it. Leadership is less about influencing and steering people. It is much more about listening, monitoring and thus about respecting diversity and the differences in this world. SH: Can you perhaps give me some examples, you know, where you felt that listening skills were fundamental in leading across cultures? BN: Before I go to some examples, I think it’s important to understand that language plays an important role because we express a lot of cultural issues through language. Language and culture are intertwined, and that brings many challenges. Allow me to <?page no="110"?> give you an example: the word “average.” I worked and lived in Sweden for some years. I also worked with a lot of French people. It is very positive if somebody is “excellent” in a French environment. The Swedish society, however, sees individual excellence not necessarily as a positive issue because it’s important that one performs in the team. So, the Swedish word for “average” is “Lagom.” It is a positive word expressing “performing in the team.” If, in a French environment, I would use “Moyenne,” it would be somewhat negative. Words play such an important role in cross-cultural issues. Of course, in an international environment, very often, we have English as a common language. Here, we have the additional challenge of both sides very often not having English as their native language. That makes language actually an obstacle. All of this is the reason why I think it’s very important to look at communications beyond language and look at behaviour and interaction. Let me give a small example and look at the communication flow sequence, how we talk, and how we start a discussion. In the German context, I would very often go directly into a business discussion from the beginning. I would not talk about personal issues. In many other cultures, however, it’s very important to talk about the person and our background first. If I’m in an Arab or Asian context, there is no way I can do business without the business partner understanding where I come from, what my family is about, what my interests are, and what personality I have. So, having such a dialogue at the beginning of a discussion is equally important as having the right words. Hence, I think it’s important to look far beyond the language when it comes to communications. SH: What languages do you speak, Bosco? BN: I speak English, German, and Swedish. Then I also have a little bit of a smattering of French, and I just started learning Italian for personal reasons. SH: So at work, working for companies such as Ericsson or with companies such as Rohde and Schwarz, which languages did you use then and there? BN: My primary language has been English for many years. My wife is British. She also speaks German fluently. So I switch easily between both languages. But English is the main language of business for me. SH: So you speak several languages, and at work, you use primarily English. What are the advantages and perhaps disadvantages of speaking English at work? Because you already mentioned there are limitations to speaking in a language that is not your mother tongue. BN: Yes, of course. First of all, the little nuances are very difficult to express. Finding the right word for the right situation is difficult. People will say they’re “angry” when they’re actually not angry, but they might be “worried.” It is very difficult to express an emotion in a different language, especially if we are not 100 % fluent. We know that in most languages, metaphors are used. We use pictures. But those pictures will not easily translate into different cultures. I remember my Australian boss, who had lived in England for a long time. He was standing in front of German engineers and wanted to express the need to be more aggressive in 110 12 Interview with Bosco Novak <?page no="111"?> the market, to go into the offensive. So he used an expression that is very well known in English because it’s from cricket. He said, “We have to get on our front foot,” which basically means we have to hit the ball early and with strength. But there were 300 German engineers standing in the crowd, and they started looking at their feet and trying to figure out what on earth they were supposed to do: go on their front foot. One thing’s for sure: This specific metaphor did not work. Different cultures have different metaphors. As I said, I used to work in Sweden. A Swedish manager will hardly use the word “No” because confrontation is avoided. This is very similar to the Japanese way. When a Swedish manager says something like, “This is a good idea; I will be looking into it.” this would translate into Germany almost like, “No, I will never do this.” We have to understand language in the cultural context. SH: But speaking English, there are limitations to that, aren’t there? I’m thinking about metaphors. I’ve been studying language or Japanese for 25 years, but metaphors are still the most difficult things to grasp, aren’t they? BN: Yes. I can speak a little bit of French, but not a lot. So, compared to someone who is very fluent in French, I will not be able to express myself at all because I only have two and a half thousand words in my vocabulary. But business is complex and requires the ability to master the complexity of our language. When speaking English as the everyday business language, many people only have a limited grasp of the language for many reasons. Communicating all the nuances will be very difficult. And remember, business discussions are often very short. Very often, we don’t even understand that the problem is, in fact, a language problem and not a real business problem. SH: Let’s talk about cultural fluency, something that goes beyond your ideas of communicating or language skills, something that makes you connect with other people, something that goes beyond language, and some cultural understanding. BN: I think that there are a lot of things that are behavioural aspects, especially body language. For instance, Sierk, you seem to know Japanese very well. You know the importance of respect for older people, the importance of hierarchies, and simple things like who sits down first, who sits where and who starts the discussion. Even what you wear will show your respect for the others. So, there are a lot of issues related to behaviour and body language. Let’s look at the example of how we use our hands. If you look into an Italian, Turkish, or Southern European context, the use of body language is extreme. If I use the same body language in an Asian context, I would be seen as very aggressive. I just can’t do that. Equally important is the tone of voice: Do I speak slowly, with a loud voice, or do I actually speak very calmly? The way I talk will have a huge impact. And this needs to be put into a cultural context. I remember one instance where we had a huge problem with a Japanese customer. He spoke to us in a very calm voice. His choice of words was very polite and very friendly. This would have been perceived as a very friendly discussion in many cultures. However, we were in Japan. Due to the overall 12 Interview with Bosco Novak 111 <?page no="112"?> context, the setting, the duration of the meeting, and how the meeting started without any personal small talk directly into the business problem, we immediately knew this would be a very tough business discussion. Just listening to the words would not have given us that information. I think it’s important when you talk about fluency; being fluent in the cultural context goes far beyond the language. SH: Thank you for sharing. Can everybody develop this kind of cultural fluency? Where does this cultural fluency come from, Bosco, in your perspective? Is it something we all have with us, more or less? Or is that something we pick up over experiencing other cultures? BN: I personally believe that international leadership can be compared with leadership across generations. We have a very similar situation where the younger generation will behave and act in a different way and use different words. This also requires cultural fluency but in my own culture. International leadership is also similar to leadership across business functions. For example, in a team, I might have a marketing manager who is very extroverted and communicative working together with a software development head who is rather introverted, reflective and shy. Having the ability to work and build a team with them has a lot of similarities to working across different cultures. You asked whether we all have more or less cultural fluency with each other. My answer is “yes; ” we already do this in our own culture successfully. There are already a lot of ingredients that we have in our personality: empathy and communication skills. Of course, some people are better at it than others. Individuals who have empathy and the monitoring antennas in their day-to-day business in their own culture, will be much more successful in an international context. SH: When you hire people from abroad or think about people you would be sending on an international assignment, what do you pay attention to, Bosco? What did you pay attention to? What are the key ingredients people need to have, if any? BN: Recruitment of the right people is a real opportunity for international leadership. You work in teams across the entire value chain across countries. There are varying time zones, travelling aspects, and cultural differences. International customers and business partners require a lot of local insight and local cultural understanding. So, how can you be successful with all of these obstacles? My answer has been straightforward. One needs to have a set of core values as a common base that allows us to communicate across all of those obstacles caused by distance in time and space as well as by cultural disparities. So, when recruiting people, my first focus has always been to understand a person’s core values. Is this a team player? Is it a person who puts himself in the front, or does he see the team’s efforts as a basis? How important is integrity for the person? Is it somebody who’s driving innovation, or is it a conservative, prudent person? Are the individual values in harmony with the company’s values? We want to benefit from 112 12 Interview with Bosco Novak <?page no="113"?> their cultural diversity, their local presence, and their insights and understanding of how to be successful in their respective environment. I like having international people in the team because they understand the market and bring innovation to my team. However, it is the set of common values that is at the core and allows us actually to benefit from diversity. I once brought in a person from Singapore to Finland for quality management to my team. Why? Because he was much more advanced in his thinking about quality concepts than anybody else on my team. So, that is the professional benefit I brought to my team. But now, I needed to make sure that he fitted into the team, not through his business excellence but his personality and matching set of values. SH: You mentioned that cultural differences are a positive thing. BN: Yes. Cultural differences are the basis for making a difference. It’s not easy, but once you see diversity as an opportunity, the actual leadership in an international environment becomes inspiring. For me it has always been motivating to understand how to accelerate the right issues, how to overcome obstacles and how to eliminate negative topics. We need the individual who makes the difference, who makes the team win, and at the same time, the cooperation in the team, building on each other’s strengths and benefiting from everybody’s individualism, including cultural diversity. SH: Do you think that everybody can become an intercultural leader, or is leadership depending on rank or position, or have they moved beyond the definition of being a good leader? Do you need to have a specific kind of rank or can anybody be a leader? BN: Not everybody can be, or even should be, a team leader. We know that there are individuals who are better off as specialists due to their personality and competence profile. Some people have the skill and the ability to lead and manage others, and others don’t. It’s the same with leading in an international context. It will be easier for some than for others. Mind you, in many cases, it might be a hidden talent. The opportunity to lead in an international environment typically comes later in one’s professional career, and the talent will only be seen when they’re exposed to it. Having said this, I think it is equally important that a company develops and implements a common concept for international leadership. This needs to become part of the normal leadership training. How to lead a team? How to have an evaluation talk. How do you run your management team? Learning how to lead in an international environment and benefit from cultural diversity is equally important. We had role models in our company, we had success stories, and we told the stories so that younger colleagues were able to learn. It is important to also learn from mistakes. There is a big misconception, especially for young people on an international assignment, and they say, “I need to change myself so I fit into the foreign society. I need to give up my cultural heritage and adapt to the new environment. I’ve got a team in Thailand, and when I go there, I have to behave like the people in Thailand.” No! Leadership is about authenticity, and authenticity is anchored in my own cultural foundation. Nobody will understand if one suddenly 12 Interview with Bosco Novak 113 <?page no="114"?> behaves differently. We don’t want people to lose their cultural heritage because then we are also losing the benefit. Equally, we should not lose our own authenticity because we would lose our own strength SH: Perhaps I need to explain a little bit about the background of this question, Bosco. I believe that the moment you communicate, you start to lead in some form. BN: So the question is, is intercultural behaviour on all levels? That is very clear, right? Absolutely yes. Intercultural behaviour is not linked to organisational hierarchies. Of course, the exposure will depend on certain jobs. There are people who will never be exposed to an international context simply because they might be working in a factory in Bavaria. On the other hand, an international sales manager will deal with such issues on a daily basis. But fundamentally, in an international company, with Spanish customers coming to the Bavarian factory for an acceptance test and software engineers in Helsinki talking with software partners in Malaysia, all of them need to understand how to work in an international business; it has nothing to do with hierarchies. SH: The final question, Bosco, is touching upon something highly relevant, which, I think when it comes to cross-cultural situations, is the notion of trust. For me, this is the most fundamental glue in cross-cultural situations. Can I trust the other person? Do you agree with me that trust is such an essential element in cross-cultural situations? And if you do, how can this be established across cultures? BN: First of all, I think that trust is the fundamental basis for all business dealings, irrespective of international or cross-cultural activities or not. Establishing trust in the team is one of the important challenges when I select and build the team. Building trust requires closeness, interaction, communication, and experience with other people. Quality time together is important, because without time, physical time, building trust is very difficult. And here is the challenge in international leadership. There are differences in time and space, and those quality interactions are rare. We communicate with each other over the Internet or through emails. That’s why building trust in international leadership requires a lot of extra effort. A common value base will help to accelerate building trust. Building international teams, it has always been important for me to create a common value base and build on top of that. We talked earlier about language. Building trust requires communication about topics requires language. And we talked about the challenges of culture and language being intertwined and these become very apparent in the process of trust building. There is a third aspect which we have not talked about at all today. I have found this aspect most difficult when it comes to building trust: It is the historical and political environment. In some environments, trust needs to be earned; in other situations, trust is granted upfront. May I give you a very personal experience? I’ve worked a lot with Romanian companies. I interacted with many impressive colleagues, both professionally as well 114 12 Interview with Bosco Novak <?page no="115"?> as privately. I experienced quite a disparity inside our own company. Some colleagues had grown up in the Ceausescu time. They were very sceptical towards hierarchy and the government and, generally speaking, towards anybody with power. This is how they grew up: I needed to work hard to gain their trust. It was entirely different with the younger generation, the software engineers, the new generation who have been exposed to all the modern communications, who might have studied in the UK or the US, and who have come back and have friends all over the world. It was completely different way of working with them. They granted my trust from the beginning—two quite different experiences in the same cultural context. Building trust, as you said, is very important. There were a lot of situations that I didn’t understand at first. I didn’t understand why people behaved in a certain way until I realised that I was actually behaving completely incorrectly. It is something I only learned over time, unfortunately. SH: I think you make a very important point here, Bosco. I think true cross-cultural competence or intercultural competence is looking beyond, you know, the Romanians or the Japanese or the Chileans. It’s about what is happening inside the country and the historical and political context. This is what you need to know to have a better, much better grasp of what is going on on the ground. Thank you so much for this interview. I really enjoyed it. I learned so much. Aha! This is Interesting • Self-awareness is essential for intercultural leaders. By understanding our own background and how it shapes how we think, feel, and behave, we can gain important reference points for our own emotions and reactions (and how those around us might perceive them). Such understanding makes us more flexible if we realise that our usual approaches do not work in different cultural contexts. Awareness of our biases and assumptions makes us more sensitive to the feelings and viewpoints of others. It immunises us against projecting our own cultural norms onto others. • Even in our own languages, putting what moves us into words is very difficult. Expressing emotions is even more difficult in a different language. Getting across the right nuance is tricky. This is especially true for more complex emotions. We may lack the right words. Appropriate ways in which feelings are communicated might differ. We might be more detached when outside our native language. On top of that, languages often rely on metaphors, symbolism, or pictures. Such metaphors do not easily travel from one language to another. There might not be direct translations to make clear how we feel. • There is a common misconception, especially amongst young people, as to how and to what extent they need to adapt to local ways of doing things. Changes for a presumed better fit into a foreign environment imply giving up on one’s own cultural heritage. But this comes with the real danger of losing our authenticity 12 Interview with Bosco Novak 115 <?page no="116"?> and, by extension, many of our key strengths and unique perspectives. Leadership is about being our genuine true selves, which is anchored in our own cultural fundament. People are more likely to trust us when they perceive us as authentic and not over-acculturated. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What is “self-awareness”? • Why is it such an essential element in developing intercultural competence? • How does a good sense of ourselves, others, and the situation raise our learning game? 2) Leadership in East Asia • Can language issues create an illusion of business problems? How so? • Why are listening skills so fundamental in leading across cultures? • Why should we not jump into business conversation (but rather develop a personal connection first) in an Asian context? • How direct should we be about negative responses in Asian business cultures? • How did sensitivity to non-verbal and para-verbal behaviour help with making sense of Japanese business communication? • Why did Bosco bring a Singaporean colleague to his team in Finland? • Why is intercultural behaviour not linked to organisational hierarchies? • How is the historical and political environment related to trust-building efforts? 116 12 Interview with Bosco Novak <?page no="117"?> 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale Sierk Horn (SH): Mr. Schmale, thank you so much for being part of this project. Perhaps let us start with a short introduction of yourself. Stefan Schmale (SS): I’m a manager and entrepreneur. I studied at WHU, the Otto Beisheim School of Management, in the USA, France and Switzerland. I then worked internationally in various management positions. I was CFO, COO and CEO of several international companies. Five years ago, I started my own company in China, where we developed, produced, and sold high-quality vegan products. This company became the market leader and official model company for China in our category. I just sold the majority of this company last February. SH: Thank you so much for this very short introduction. You surely have had plenty of experience with managing and leading across cultures. In your opinion, what makes intercultural leadership or leadership across cultures successful? What are the key ingredients for you? SS: First, you have to define what success means. Simply put, success is achieving your goals. When it comes to leadership, it’s usually about breaking down your goals into goals for your people and making them successful in achieving them. There will be different ways of doing this, but basically, this is true in all countries and cultures. One very important thing to start with is to be open to understanding that any culture is a complex system in which many things are intertwined on many levels. It may appear imperfect and strange to us. But most of the time, it works. To lead successfully in such a country, we have to be open to understanding and learning how it works, accepting the differences. Let me give you an example. When we go to France, everything looks very much like here. At first glance, only the language is different. So, we tend to use our standards and assume they work like they do at home. Then, we often realise that what we do in Germany does not lead to the same result, which we find odd. In fact, the French are very different from us. They think differently, work differently, have different priorities, different processes, and decide differently. What works very well in France. So, if we don’t understand that they live in a different system and introduce incompatible standards, there’s a lot of room for misunderstanding and mistrust on both sides, which makes successful management much more difficult. Both sides will find the other’s behaviour strange. In faraway places like Asia, it’s often easier because you can see at first glance that everything is completely different. So, people who go there tend to be more open to accepting that things work differently. But in practice it is still very often a problem because people do not invest enough time to really understand and reflect on the system and its differences. They still do what they do at home and are surprised when they do not get the results they expect. <?page no="118"?> I am not saying that you always have to do what they do in that culture. Often, there are better ways. But if you do something different, you should know that you are intervening in a complex system and what that means. For me, accepting a culture as a complex system and being willing to understand at least the basics of how it works is a key ingredient to being successful in that culture. In addition, of course, communication skills are crucial. Communication is much more than just speaking the language. Communication has many levels, such as facial expressions, gestures, and also behaviour. What you do, how you do it, when and where you do it. When you’re in the same culture, people usually understand your signals easily, especially when they’re combined. Of course, the words you choose are key. But so is your style, whether informal or formal, your facial expressions, your gestures, and the setting in which you do something. Even the way you dress can be a signal. If you’re not born in a country, a lot of that multilevel communication gets lost in both directions, so you have to compensate for that. The better you compensate, the more successful you will be. You can prepare for this through cultural training, but you will never be perfect. However, you will probably understand better, make fewer mistakes, and especially avoid the big ones. And by trying, you show people that you care about their culture. In China, I often asked some of my trusted people what certain signals, like letters, e-mails, gifts, etc., I received meant and how best to respond to them. For example, gifts are important and meaningful in China. Often personal. There are many do’s and don’ts. Superstitions are also common. So you can make a lot of mistakes by giving the wrong gift or holding events on the wrong day. When I sold my company, the contract mathematically resulted in a certain down payment to be calculated after closing. However, the figure that came out contained too many numbers with bad omens. That’s why the buyer asked for a change. Which, of course, I accepted immediately, contract or no contract. It was just the wrong thing to argue about. Another thing that helps in international leadership is to be clear about your own thoughts and goals. Very often, people can’t say exactly what they want, even in their own language. And if they are in a country where they don’t speak the language fluently and have no other communication skills, it gets even more difficult. In Germany, colleagues may be able to guess what you want because they know your context. In a foreign country, the chances of that happening are much lower. Emotional intelligence is important as well. If you’re not sure that what you want to say will come across, it helps if you can read the reaction to it. Then, you can adjust. This has become even more important in the age of translation programs, where you can never be sure that they are choosing the right words. There is another aspect that is a little more delicate. In many countries, there are a lot of clichés about Germans. We are seen as humourless, stiff, punctual, pedantic and slightly arrogant. Sometimes, we are even accused of being racists. This is rarely said openly, but it’s a fact that you just have to accept. 118 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="119"?> Even if there is little we can do about these prejudices on an individual level, we should avoid confirming them. Confirming behaviour is always perceived more strongly than contradictory behaviour and thus indirectly confirms all other prejudices. Sadly, I have seen many German managers behaving very arrogantly and inconsid‐ erately in less developed Asian countries. They were probably also motivated by the friendliness and reserve they were shown. They clearly felt at ease. However, this was actually perceived very negatively locally. More than once I was ashamed of my fellow countrymen, for which we have the word “Fremdschämen” in Germany. In addition - and this complements what I have just said - when it comes to intercultural leadership, you should realistically assess your own abilities and those of your employees and manage expectations accordingly. If you give the impression that you know everything better, the others will usually realise very quickly that you do not. And if you expect too much from your employees that they can’t fulfil, it will also be difficult because both sides are frustrated. You will be most effective if you can convince your local employees that you are fighting together with them for their success and the success of their local company. And that your stay is not just a check-the-box item on your career plan that you have to tick off. Most expats are sent to another country for a limited period of time, typically three years. There are many reasons for this, including legal and tax reasons. In the first year, they usually have to settle in and learn and understand the basics themselves. Therefore, they are not very effective. In the second year, they can be effective. In the third year, they might be effective, but often, they are already looking for their next job elsewhere. Everybody knows that. So there’s a big risk of becoming a lame duck, that people will just wait out if they don’t like your decisions and you haven’t managed to build enough loyalty and trust by then. Nowadays, you must always be aware that many of the locals are as well educated and qualified as you. Your only advantage often is that you come from the parent company, making earning respect more difficult. SH: Thank you so much, Mr. Schmale, for these wonderful observations. What about ambiguity? Because ultimately, you are entering a really uncertain environment. Is that something that you’ve been coming across as an important aspect, that you’re able to deal with, and that you’re uncomfortable with this kind of uncertainty as well? SS: Yes, that’s definitely the case. But let me start from a different perspective. As Germans, we generally live in a higher informational context than many other cultures. We like to make decisions based on rational facts. We also tend to be more risk-averse than other cultures. We do not like uncertainty and try to reduce risk by thinking, planning, organising, scheduling etc. We, therefore, like to gather and analyse information before making a decision. We are also monochronic. We like to do one thing at a time. So our typical way of working is TPA - think, plan, act - which, by the way, also allows us to justify when we fail. 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 119 <?page no="120"?> Other cultures are often very different. Most Chinese, for example, don’t like to plan in detail. They prefer to decide and act early, based on much less information and accepting a much higher degree of uncertainty. And they are polychronic. They like to be flexible and do several things at once. Their way of working is, therefore, more trial and error, learning from experience: ATP - act, see results, think, plan. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages: Ours is probably more efficient but much slower and less flexible. And it requires a lot of information and analysis. In China, they probably make more mistakes, but they are quick to correct them and typically deliver results much faster. The best solution is probably somewhere in the middle like reduced planning up front and accepting more risk in exchange for speed and flexibility. However, many German expats do not cope well with these general differences. They feel uncomfortable in such an uncertain environment, where they have to make decisions based on much less and weaker information and cannot always rationalise and justify their decisions in detail. Their ability to make decisions tends to decrease, and the locals see them as complicated and slow. So, to be successful, you have to learn to deal with this and find other ways to make good and quick decisions. SH: Before we move on, I would like to pick up on this idea of emotional intelligence. You described it as a very important aspect of intercultural leadership success. In my experience, living abroad for a longer time also does something with you in terms of your emotions. It’s very difficult to live abroad for a long period. You have this kind of ups and downs in your emotions, haven’t you? Sometimes some things are really, really exciting, and sometimes things just don’t work out. SS: What you say is very important. I fully agree with that. I was in China during Covid. For years, I saw my wife only every half year for a few weeks. And I spent months alone in locked rooms in quarantine. That was definitely hard. In the beginning, everything was new and exciting. It’s like a little adventure. But the more it starts to be a daily routine with typical everyday problems, the more challenging it can become. It is estimated that around 50 % of all expats left China during Zero-Covid times, not because of problems at work but mostly because they could no longer manage their daily lives. Of course, these were special times. But it shows how important life outside work is for a successful assignment abroad. You were assigned for a reason, and the question is how much personal issues affect your leadership behaviour. If you’re unhappy all the time, everything feels bad, and your only wish is to get back home, it definitely doesn’t contribute to your motivation and charisma at work. And, therefore, probably not to your success either. Especially in lesser developed countries, you usually have more difficult times from time to time. But even then, you can be successful if you accept the challenge and see it as an opportunity to grow and improve. Then, you learn to separate your personal feelings from your professional behaviour. For an employer, it is therefore very important to select people who can cope with their daily life in a country. Of course, there are countries that are easier than others. 120 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="121"?> The Netherlands or Austria are easy for Germans. You can also travel home more often. Bangladesh, Myanmar and China are much more difficult. You have to be aware of this when you send people abroad as an employer or accept such an assignment as an employee. Perhaps we can take up this topic again later. SH: Could you elaborate a little bit more on what role communication plays, very generally speaking, in making intercultural leadership successful? SS: Communication is the key. It conveys all the information you need to really lead people. You need to communicate goals and corrective actions and provide the necessary input for the work. Communication is also very important to create trust and a certain level of iden‐ tification with the person, which facilitates collaboration and is the basis for your reputation and influence in the organisation. As I said before, it thereby is not a one-way street. However, the importance of your communication skills also depends on the situation in which you need to communicate. For example, if you work as an engineer in a factory and your job is to tell the workers on the shopfloor how to do their job, it’s very one-sided and very factual. Nowadays, processes in factories around the world tend to be very similar, so as an expat, you quickly find yourself in familiar, safe territory. You have probably been assigned because you have superior technical know-how, which makes it easier to be respected. In this case, you only need limited cross-cultural communication skills. I have met several such people with very limited intercultural communication skills who were very successful on the shop floor but spent their free time almost exclusively in their hotel and with German colleagues. Because they had no connection to the country and culture at all. And there was no need to socialise. It’s much harder if you’re in marketing, for example. Methods and experiences cannot simply be transferred but must be adapted to the culture in order to be effective. At the same time, you are often dealing with well-trained employees who not only speak the language perfectly, but also know the culture and systems much better than you do. And they often believe, not unreasonably, that they are better suited for the job. If you do not know the terrain, leading and earning respect is more difficult. In such a situation, managers must question themselves much more often, reflect on their ideas, and put their thoughts up for discussion in order to benefit from the knowledge and experience of the locals without appearing weak. That’s not easy in cultures where people traditionally don’t like to contradict their superiors. And you have to trust what they say a lot more. As we discussed earlier, you are working on more uncertain ground. This often means that you have to change your leadership style to a more collabo‐ rative and risk-taking one, even if your old style made you successful for many years back home. It can be even more difficult when you need to make a personal connection with someone, such as an important business partner, to build your network outside the company. Inside the company, relationships have an institutional framework. People 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 121 <?page no="122"?> have to talk to you; there are reporting lines and formalised meetings. None of that exists outside the company, and you need different communication skills and knowledge of how to network and maintain a trusting relationship in that culture. SH: Are the companies you’ve been working for aware of these kinds of necessary communication levels? SS: Not all, and not in that depth. When it comes to international assignments, the first priority usually is the specialist skills required. The next step is to see who among the qualified candidates is available. And willing. Especially for more difficult countries that often very much limits the choice already. You might be happy to find someone at all. The candidates are then usually asked whether they can imagine working in the country. Very often, the answer is very optimistic, especially from men, who are usually more willing to take risks and look forward to the “adventure.” But how much is the answer worth if this person only knows foreign countries as a tourist? And nothing about the new destination in particular? Very often, the decision-maker, a superior, has never worked in that country either. And no one from the HR department. So, it’s often a kind of blind guess as to whether a person will fit into a particular culture or not. I’ve never seen a “cultural fit” check. And then there is often also the family. If there is an international school or kindergarten, the children usually adapt quickly. But I have seen several divorces and early terminations because the spouse could not cope with the new environment. The first few weeks are exciting, but what do you do all day when you don’t know anyone and don’t speak the language? Life as an expatriate spouse can be extremely boring and unsatisfying if you do not know how to entertain yourself. SH: Decision-makers should ideally have the experience to select the best person for that particular country. Hence, you know what the people are awaiting from them before they are sent to another country. SS: The final decision-maker in a large company is often responsible for a dozen countries or more. He or she may have worked in one or two of them, but certainly not all of them. So he knows there will be challenges, but not in detail. Often, he does not know the person to be sent, but he or she has been recommended by his or her line manager or the HR department. As described above, the discussion then mainly revolves around the business challenges and conditions. What do we expect of you? Who do you report to? What are your contract terms and your title? How long will you go, and what will happen when you return? This is then agreed upon. Large companies often provide onboarding assistance, which means they take care of things like documentation, relocation, housing and schooling. You may also get cultural training and someone to talk to if you have problems in the country. In smaller companies, there is usually less or none of this. So, expats are much more on their own. 122 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="123"?> Without a fully-fledged organisation behind you, people often underestimate how much time it can take to manage your daily life - finding a place to live, getting insurance, finding good doctors, finding schools for the children, getting a driving license, getting a phone contract etc. If your company does not take care of this, it depends on how difficult the country is. In the EU, it will probably be easy. In the US, it is not so difficult. But it can be quite difficult in countries like China, Vietnam or Malaysia, especially if you do not speak the language. During the Zero-Covid period, despite the massive help of my staff and my basic knowledge of Chinese, I spent up to 30 % of my daily time just managing myself. There were lots of documents to fill in, all in Chinese - tests I had to take, government offices I had to visit for visas and permits etc. Nobody spoke English; everything had to be translated. That can be really frustrating. SH: I make a hypothesis now that those who speak a certain language, such as Chinese or Japanese or Vietnamese, know what they are up to when they are being sent to these kinds of countries. What role do language skills play in leadership across cultures? SS: Let me start by making an observation. In my experience, people who speak a certain language don’t necessarily really know the country or the culture. Normal language training does not necessarily mean cultural training and understanding, especially when it comes to daily life. You may have visited the country once, but probably only as a tourist, which is hardly comparable to real life there. But there’s no doubt that knowing the language will help you to settle in and adapt more quickly. And, of course, acceptance will be higher. Language skills are important, no question. We have already talked about the different levels and requirements of intercultural communication. As already mentioned, communication skills are always the bottleneck on both sides - objectively and psychologically. If you can only communicate in English in a non-English-speaking country, you will probably get on well with people who also speak fluent English. But anyone else who doesn’t speak English or speaks it poorly is unlikely to approach you voluntarily to tell you something. That’s completely human. Nevertheless, conversations and meetings with expats are usually only conducted in English so that they can follow from start to finish. This inevitably means that a lot of valuable information and knowledge can be lost. Or at least it will take much longer for it to reach you. You need to be aware of this and find a solution. One option is to build up a network of English-speaking people through whom you can obtain information. However, this will rarely be exhaustive and always carries the risk of being dependent and manipulated. Who likes to report on their own mistakes? You are in a bit of a bubble. Nevertheless, I think this is the most common way in most companies. I had the same problem in China. Several of my best employees didn’t speak a word of English. During meetings, I could often tell from their faces that they wanted to say something. At least then, I could ask them and have it translated. But although we 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 123 <?page no="124"?> had a good personal relationship, they would never proactively approach me to tell me anything. It would have been too embarrassing for them. That’s why I officially made Chinese the company language. And I made it very clear that the problem is not that people don’t speak English but that I don’t speak Chinese well enough, which is why I, unfortunately, need translation from time to time. At the same time, I accepted that important parts of discussions or meetings were only conducted in Chinese. I was only regularly given a summarised translation, which I could then use to intervene again. That was a bit strange for me at first. But as a result, everyone got much more involved, and the quality and speed of the discussions improved significantly. And the previous discussion also filtered out a lot of unimportant things that I no longer had to listen to. The other effect was that nobody had a problem speaking to me in Chinese anymore, mostly in writing via WeChat, which I could then easily translate using an app. I received suggestions, tips on problems, and even comments. Communication was massively expanded and intensified, eliminating a large part of the previous bottleneck. And, importantly, I didn’t lose face as a result. On the contrary, people appreciated and respected that I admitted that my language skills, not theirs, were the real problem in their country. Which everyone implicitly knew anyway. SH: And what I observed here, Mr. Schmale, is that although there might be like an official corporate language that says English, people outside the boardroom, outside the meeting room, switch back to their original language, such as German. That even exacerbates these problems of language because people are left out if you’re switching back and forth between languages, aren’t you? SS: You’re absolutely right. In many companies, it is popular to define a corporate language, typically English. Often, all communication has to be in English, and all meetings are held in English. Of course, this is done to improve communication between locations and to create a certain level of parity. But very often, people overlook the downside: I have seen many meetings where no one spoke in their native language. This means that a lot of denotative content and even more connotative content is inevitably lost because people simply are not as good and precise in a foreign language as they are in their own. And there is another effect. Nowadays, German top managers are usually comfort‐ able with English. Like me, they have studied and worked abroad and switch languages several times a day anyway. But this is not true for everyone, especially if they come from lesser developed countries and have not studied or worked abroad. Their English is okay but far from perfect - it works in one-on-one conversations or small groups, especially if you know each other well. But in larger meetings, these people often don’t even dare to speak up for fear of losing face. The better the others speak English and the more complicated the topic, the greater the reluctance. 124 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="125"?> For this reason, I have seen brilliant managers not speak up on important topics, even though I knew they would have made important contributions. Or they were even cut off by the CEO because it was too exhausting to listen to their English. I have often had discussions with foreign managers after such a meeting and asked, “Why didn’t you say that in the meeting? ” And the typical answer was, “My English is not good enough, and I did not want to make a fool of myself.” You have to remember that they are very respected people in their country, and they have their pride, too. As you said, in German companies, when Germans face this problem, they just switch back to German to make their point, making it even more difficult for others who understand even less and do not have the same opportunity. Essentially, a lot of information gets lost in these situations, and people feel embarrassed, which does not really help their team spirit. But the top managers, who are fluent in English, are still happy because the meeting went so well, not realising how much potential was left untapped. So, what is intended to improve intercultural communication can have significant drawbacks. I am not saying that you should not have a corporate language. But it does not solve all problems and should be handled pragmatically, trying to take everyone along so that communication does not become the bottleneck again. SH: Do you believe there is something we could call cultural fluency? So, is there something besides communication or language skills that makes people successful across cultures? To have this kind of ability to sense other people’s culture somehow and how things are done elsewhere. SS: Yes, these people exist. I know several of those. They get along well with people almost everywhere. But interestingly, they are not effective in all situations. If you look at what characterises these people, for example, it is a great openness to other cultures. They are curious. They are interested in people and want to understand them. Typically, they like to socialise, which is what we call “Geselligkeit” in German. They make other people feel that they enjoy their company. They tend to be empathetic and have strong emotional intelligence. They make others feel respected. At work, they are team players and openly share knowledge. They often have a good sense of humour that helps break down barriers. People with high cultural fluency are very realistic about themselves and don’t come across as arrogant. They are accountable and have a flexible work style that is easily compatible with others. Many of them are also interesting people and have charisma. And they are often somehow attractive, which always helps to connect with others. All of these qualities are elements of what you call cultural fluency and go beyond mere communication. If you have those and you speak some languages, you are a perfect fit. You can find these people in both genders, but I know more men. This is not representative, of course. But maybe because there are fewer female expats anyway and because it is more difficult for a woman in many countries. And it is harder for a 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 125 <?page no="126"?> woman to approach others proactively without being misunderstood. But this is just a personal assumption. There’s one drawback, though. From what I have seen, these people are not always the most effective in situations of conflict or distress. Probably because of their empathy and their urge to make friends, they find it harder to be firm and tough in stressful and uncomfortable situations. They are more likely to try to compromise early and make everyone happy. This is when they are not as effective, and, as an employer, you are better off replacing them with a “bully” type. SH: Do you think such people are particularly good with one culture, or do you think these people are good with many cultures? SS: I’ve seen people do well in many cultures. Others do well only in certain cultures. For example, there are people who can only work in Europe, in countries that are not so culturally different from ours, but who would never do well in Africa, South America, or Asia. The most flexible people are often found in sales probably because they tend to be extroverted, outgoing, and talkative. And not so much a believer in rules. On the other hand, in my experience, people in finance are often culturally less flexible. They prefer stable structures and have to follow rules set by their profession. They simply do not like the uncertainty in many countries. The bottom line is that there are many aspects to cultural fit, and it is not easy. When you make the decision to send someone abroad, you have to look at the culture and you have to look at the individual. It helps a lot to analyse and prepare, and you can make the start easier by providing support. But still, very often, you only know afterwards. SH: Your company or the companies you’ve been working for before, what do they pay attention to when hiring people from abroad or when preparing for international work? SS: From what I have seen, most companies - understandably - focus on job-related issues. Education, experience, accomplishments, references. Then, language skills. The hard facts. This is understandable because that is what you do when you are recruiting for your local organisation to find the right person. What is often neglected, however, are the soft factors that are absolutely essential for success abroad -cultural adaptability and openness, emotional resilience, and the ability to integrate. Last but not least, I will discuss the family situation and acceptance. These key issues are often reduced to questions such as “Can you imagine doing this? ” and “Would your family go with you? ” “Or accept a longer separation? ” In my opinion, the soft factors are often not given the attention and seriousness they deserve, considering how important they are for real success. But there is a second aspect that I would like to point out: networking. Normally, you are more efficient in your work, the better you understand how the company works, who you need to contact to solve a particular problem, and the more and the sooner you 126 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="127"?> receive relevant information. Even informally, outside the usual reporting channels. Usually, you have to know the people in the company and have a network. When you are hired in Germany, this usually happens automatically. The network is created through daily work, colleagues, meetings, lunch in the canteen or company events. It is not easy for expats to build such a network, especially if they are not fluent in the language. If you do not speak the language, it is much harder to make those informal connections, and you see the company through a much smaller window. In some companies, expats are assigned mentors, or there are introductory programs. However, this usually only covers a small part of a network. I once set up an Asian subsidiary for one of my employers. In that specific case, I hired local staff who would go through all the relevant departments of the parent company during the preparation phase. I also had them report their experiences to me once a week so that we could discuss them. That was time-consuming. But later, when they were in Asia, they knew exactly who they could turn to if they had a problem and what information that person needed to solve the problem because they knew how that person worked. And they were also more than just a voice on the phone, causing extra work. This made things much quicker and more efficient. SH: You mentioned these cases where there’s even the opportunity or, you know, sadly, that people get a divorce because of the stresses. But I’ve also seen very successful managers abroad who are married to somebody from the local community. Is that also a pattern you observed that it is really helpful to have somebody on the ground who helps you translate what is happening daily? SS: I have often observed this. But not in every country. There are countries where it happens more often and others where it happens less often. Maybe it’s just a matter of perceived attractiveness, cultural fit, and economic differences. In developing countries, a “wealthy” expat with a good position in an international company will obviously be more attractive than in a developed country. China is a typical country where expats, usually men, marry locals. I have seen many of these and the likelihood of this happening is relatively high. One of my managers in China, whose wife had stayed at home, once informed me that his wife had filed for divorce. He told me that he was quitting to return to Germany and take care of the divorce. I said, “In my experience, unmarried managers find Chinese women very quickly, and they don’t want to leave anymore.” He just smiled at me. Three months later, still within his notice period, he found a Chinese girlfriend. He asked me if he could stay, and of course I said yes. Now they are married and have a child. SH: But the problem is, you can’t plan for that. But it happens. And I think it comes it is really, really effective and efficient. 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 127 <?page no="128"?> SS: Right. As you said, daily life and survival become much easier. Secondly, language skills improve much faster. If your wife comes from this country, your motivation to learn is completely different. Your personal identification with the country and the company also changes. It feels a bit more like home. You make local friends more easily and are seen a little more as a local yourself, which can open doors. SH: Can everybody be an intercultural leader? Or does it depend on rank and position? SS: These are two different questions. As for the first, I don’t believe that everyone can be an intercultural leader, at least not a good one. And of those who can, as discussed, many can only be in certain cultures. Some don’t have the intellectual and mental capacity; some just don’t have the cultural openness, and some can’t live in a challenging foreign environment. And finally, some are not good leaders at home. How can you expect them to be better abroad? As for your second question, rank and position also have a strong influence. We have already talked about the different challenges in terms of communication depending on your job profile. If your job is very technical and factual, it’s easier than if it requires more social skills. And it’s usually easier the greater the difference in knowledge between you and your colleagues. That alone will make you respected. But formal rank also plays an important role, of course. The more important you are, the more power you have, the more people have to adapt to you, not you to them. They have to live with all your possible weaknesses and deficits and cannot easily resist them. Leadership weaknesses are also detrimental here but are usually not so noticeable. This also applies to the manager themselves, who often do not realise what problems their behaviour is causing. As long as everything is going reasonably well, it is not easy to recognise unused leadership potential. SH: I believe trust is fundamental to good leadership or management across cultures. That being the case, we have to find out how you establish trust across cultural boundaries. Is that something easily done or difficult? SS: You’re right. I completely agree with you. But first, let me make a little distinction. In business relationships, you give, and you take, and you have to trust that what you give has the same value as what you receive. Cheating is always a risk in business transactions. But there are cultures where personal trust is very important in these situations, and there are cultures where institutional trust is more important. Typically, Western cultures put more emphasis on institutional trust. In my opinion, the US is the strongest in this regard. Institutional trust means contracts, lawyers, courts, or police. If you are sure that you can legally enforce your rights through these institutions, you are more likely to do business with strangers. If they misbehave, you just sue them. Other cultures rely heavily on personal trust. Especially those that do not have a strong system of law enforcement or where law enforcement takes too long. In these cultures, people want to know a person they are doing business with, look them in the eye, have a personal relationship. They rely on personal trust because they do not believe that law enforcement will be effective in case of need. 128 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="129"?> It’s not completely black and white, but you have to pay close attention to how trust is created in a culture if you want to work successfully in it. The Chinese, for example, do not usually go to court because, traditionally, they have never trusted institutions very much. Certainly, the legal system has improved over time, but they still rely more on their Guanxi network. Guanxi is a network built on trust, give and take, and long-term relationships. There is a lot of trust in this network. And if you are an outsider and cause trouble for one member, you risk getting into trouble with the whole network. This is very disciplining and explains why the Chinese like to show off the important people they know at the first meeting. As a result, the Chinese place less importance on contracts, which they see as a reflection of current understanding rather than a document that is fixed forever. Instead of spending a lot of time negotiating a very detailed contract, many look for and invest their time in a trusting, long-term personal relationship. Although they don’t mind good contracts, a Chinese wants to be sure that if there’s a problem, he can sit down with you and work it out in person. I once worked with a German lawyer in China. He was very good. But he was also very detailed and very black and white. It either went the way he said or not at all. On the other hand, he wasn’t interested in personal matters at all. I had built a good relationship with our Chinese partners, and we agreed on the basic terms of our cooperation when he came in. During the contract negotiations, led by me and their CEO, I could see my Chinese partners getting more and more annoyed and impatient. They didn’t want to talk about the contract in such detail and have every little thing settled. Instead, they saw us more and more as difficult, complicated partners. I then replaced the lawyer with another one who was much more flexible and more personable. We then focused on getting all the important points through and were flexible on the minor or unimportant points that had little risk. Negotiations now went smoothly; we got a good contract, maintained a good personal relationship, and never had to pull the contract out again because we were able to resolve everything through discussion. Conversely, you will have a hard time closing an important deal in the U.S. without a contract that covers all the important risks upfront. It’s all about the terms, the chosen jurisdiction, the problem-solving mechanisms, the penalties etc. Everything should be defined and regulated because Americans have more confidence when they believe they can enforce their rights in court. In order to create trust, it is better to use a good lawyer and find good contractual solutions. What I am trying to say is that trust is created differently in different cultures. So you have to figure that out first. And then choose the right people to do it. Do not send your best technocrat to China to negotiate if he hates socialising. Or your best salesman to the US if he hates contracts. But there are also some lower-level differences in trust between cultures. 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 129 <?page no="130"?> One is respect, which is especially important in less developed countries. In these countries, you are often dealing with people who are good at what they do. But they are not running a modern factory; they have not studied abroad, maybe they have not studied at all. They do not speak foreign languages, at least not well. They do not go on vacation three times a year; they may never have left their country, and they do not drive expensive cars. These people are usually very sensitive to personal or cultural arrogance. You may seem important by always pointing out how much better everything is in your country, what car you drive, or how many countries you have seen. But not trustworthy. Because you seem arrogant and disrespectful. On the other hand, these people see it as very positive if their culture and personal achievements are valued and respected so that they feel they are on an equal footing. In developed countries, this is not as much of a problem because, in most cases, you are on the same level anyway. Honesty and reliability are also very important. The more so, the greater the distance and cultural differences. Many companies in faraway countries have found that in the event of delivery or other problems, local customers of foreign suppliers are informed and dealt with first, and distant customers are dealt with much later. Promising the moon and being unable to deliver when there is a problem destroys trust. I had this experience with European suppliers in my factory in China and increasingly localised the supply. We spoke the language, we knew the system, but we did not feel that our problems were really being taken care of because we were so far away. You should also try to be fair. People in less developed countries are not stupid and will understand if they are treated unfairly. If there are good reasons why you have certain demands, at least take the time to explain them in detail. Proactive communication is the key. Once the other party feels they have been treated unfairly or ripped off, it is very difficult to heal and rebuild trust. Of course, standards of what is considered fair may vary from country to country. In Central and Northern Europe, people are more consensus-oriented. Going into talks with obviously excessive demands is seen as impertinent and unfair. The positions of both parties should be reasonable and in view from the outset. In other countries, people are used to approaching each other from very distant positions without immediately interpreting this as a weakness. I have my own experience of this in Turkish bazaars. The wrong approach at the start of a conversation, therefore, carries a great risk of misunderstanding and mistrust. I have often made it easy for myself in such countries by openly saying before negotiations begin that, as a German, I find it culturally difficult to negotiate down unrealistic offers. I see this more as an insult. If the offer I got then was reasonable and my counterpart realised that I made an equally reasonable counteroffer, a lot of trust had already been gained. And if the offer was unrealistic, I could clearly say that I had a problem with it and felt that I had been treated unfairly, which put the other side on 130 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="131"?> the defensive. In these cases, I never received a second unrealistic offer, and most of my relationships were very good and trustful afterwards. The same applies to employee management. If people know what makes you tick before you make a decision and understand that you are not making this decision because you are unfair but because you have a different view of things, you at least prevent major damage to trust. They may not like it, but at least understand it. Again, communication is the key. And there is another, very personal level. When socialising and getting to know people, Hispanics typically ask where you are from. Italians like to talk about your family. Germans ask about your job. Chinese like to talk about family and cultural things, especially about their country or region. In Spanish-speaking countries, I therefore mention early on that my wife is Spanish and where she comes from. That always breaks the ice. My counterpart usually knows someone from the area or has a relative there. In countries where personal relationships are important, I’m also not afraid to talk about my family. In Germany, that would be considered unprofessional. But in countries where they want to get to know the person, it helps to show openness and find common ground. And the atmosphere changes on the spot. I generally drink very, very little alcohol. But in countries like China, Japan, Korea and Russia, I have accepted the fact that it helps to clink glasses with business partners and often toast to exes. That’s how personal relationships are formed and strengthened. Nowadays, you can usually say no. But you have to be smart about how you do it, and you have to find alternative ways to socialise. Honesty is also important. Because people are not stupid. They are not stupid in any country. They see when you hold back or when you lie, and then they start to lose trust. And it’s not easy to be credibly dishonest in a foreign language anyway. SH: This is a fantastic way of ending today’s interview. Thank you so much, Mr. Schmale, for your openness and sharing your thoughts with you. Thank you so much. Aha! This is Interesting • Intercultural leadership is about managing expectations. However, realism about your capabilities and your team’s capabilities is essential. Stefan suggests that clarity about your own thoughts and goals enables you to communicate frankly and honestly (especially when you do not speak the local language). When doing so, we would do well to show a certain humility towards the new environment we find ourselves in. Showing off and expecting too much from one’s team can cause disturbances. Remember that our time abroad is also often limited (many expatriate assignments are for three years). Identifying with the company’s values, goals and culture and making clear that you commit to the firm’s long-term success is crucial. 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale 131 <?page no="132"?> • Decisions on assignments abroad often depend on factors such as availability, relationships or career development considerations (and not so much on who might be the best fit). What complicates matters is that often, those who make the selection lack the experience of more challenging work destinations or have not worked abroad themselves at all. They, thus, may not have a full picture of the unique challenges of succeeding in these countries. Ideally, personnel selection should involve people who have had similar experiences to those that likely await candidates in such cases. • The company language choice can considerably impact how local employees in‐ teract and contribute. While many firms resort to English, they may underestimate proficiency levels, especially in complicated, difficult, or controversial situations. People who are shy or not so fluent in English start to hold back, even though they may have some very precious insights to share. Adopting the local language can make a significant difference in participation. Employees may feel more at ease speaking their minds. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What are the three arrows of practising interculturality, and how do they help navigate intercultural leadership situations? 2) Leadership in East Asia • Do you agree with Stefan that people are more open to understanding different systems in countries far away rather than those closer to home? What are the potential repercussions? • Stereotypes involve both positive and negative facets. Why should sojourners be aware of such generalisations about their country-of-origin when they are in Asia? • According to Stefan, Germans and Chinese differ in their approaches to risk, planning and action. Discuss the potential challenges of combining these two ways of working. • What are non-verbal and para-verbal skills? And why are they so important in cross-cultural situations? • What is the meaning of “Geselligkeit? ” And why is this an important attribute for interacting with people across cultures? • What is the role of Guanxi in trust-building? • How do Chinese and American attitudes towards contracts differ? Do they reflect broader cultural differences between these two countries? How so? • Why do Chinese businesses often avoid using the courts for disputes? 132 13 Interview with Stefan Schmale <?page no="133"?> 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger Sierk Horn (SH): Mr. Geltinger, thank you so much for taking the time today to do this interview with me. I’m pleased to have you on board for this project. Perhaps you would like to introduce yourself to my readers. Christian Geltinger (CG): The pleasure is mine. Many thanks for inviting me to this session. I gathered my first professional Asian experience as a biology student at the University of Munich on a scholarship at a prestigious research centre in Japan (RIKEN). Later, I also started my post doctorate there. This sparked my interest in staying in Japan and opened my mind to future career opportunities there. But first, I joined the Bavarian Ministry of Economic Affairs in the newly formed task force “Invest in Bavaria” as a scientist, basically directly from the lab bench, which was quite a leap. But at the time, everything came together as I was responsible for the many international life science investors we wanted to attract to Bavaria and the Japanese business community of Bavaria. Plus, I could team up with our colleagues around the world. The government’s globalisation drive started with an overseas office in Japan (in 1988). Then came offices in New York and China, followed by further offices in North America, South America and so on. From day one, I have had the opportunity for dialogue with my colleagues in the Tokyo and China offices and, at that time, also in the Taiwan and Singapore offices. I was also in charge of the New York and Québec offices for some time. This international connection attracted me very much. In 2006, I had the opportunity to take another leap of faith by moving from supporting our front offices in Asia to running the operations on the ground. So I was the representative for Bavaria in China from 2006 to 2010, a good three-and-a-half-year period during the Beijing Olympic Games, and it was a very nice experience. Immediately after that, I transferred to the Tokyo office and was in charge of the Japan office. I was the Bavarian representative for Japan from 2010 to 2022. So that was quite a long span in Japan. In early 2000, I also had the opportunity to set up a Korean office, which was an exciting moment for us at the time. Even North Korea was quite open to our activities and interests. We tried to establish common ground. The first step was to have an office, not in Pyongyang naturally, but in Seoul, which I was responsible for at the time. I’ve been back in Munich since 2022 and am occasionally engaged with international affairs. SH: Thank you for this brief introduction to yourself. So, obviously, you have plenty of experience dealing with people across cultures and people of different cultural backgrounds. How important are communication skills in dealing with Japanese business partners? CG: I think that’s one of the most important aspects. Without communication there would be no interaction, no serious exchange. It all comes down to finding the right way to communicate. In short, business is still a very personal matter. Of course, it <?page no="134"?> helps to have a broader perspective on things, a mindset filled with experience from the country and so on. But you are still dealing with people, individuals on the other side. I think it’s also important to find common ground and not to judge people on the basis of first impressions. Of course, first impressions are helpful, but you get second and third impressions through communication. You have to understand that you’re always dealing with an individual, regardless of their position, whether it’s a business leader, a student or an intern. You always have an individual in front of you, and the language comes second. I think you can always find ways to bridge any gaps. In many cases, I have had interpreters from my own office and team next to me. I felt most comfortable when there was an interpreter, but sometimes it was not necessary because we understood each other anyway. This was a very satisfying experience during the 15 years I spent in Asia. I didn’t really look at people and say, “OK, you’re Chinese, or you’re Japanese, or you’re Korean, or you’re Taiwanese,” because that doesn’t help you in terms of communication in terms of the meeting, in terms of what you’re trying to achieve. Instead, try to find out the character and personality of the person you’re talking to. The context in which he or she is speaking, the framework and the limitations that some people have when talking to you. Put yourself in their shoes. What can you say? What can’t you say? What do you want to say? Bear in mind that your counterpart might consider the same when entering a meeting with you. SH: Some would argue that intercultural communication is much less about talking than listening and observing. Would you agree with that kind of statement? CG: I would certainly agree. And it’s not just listening; it’s active listening. When I was here in Europe, or now in Germany, we listen. But when we listen, we tend to already formulate an answer. When you listen to someone, you get information; you get some sort of input. Spontaneously, you would react by thinking of a clever answer that you are formulating in your mind. An then, when it’s your turn, you provide this answer. But that’s not what I experienced in Asia. One listens to you and digests what you have just said. So it takes more time to get an answer. In the beginning, this gap can be a bit awkward because you may think, “Well, didn’t they understand me or what’s happening now? Why is nobody answering right away? Are they lost in translation? It took me a while to understand that, indeed, they were not only listening, but they were also trying to understand what was really said. And so it becomes very important to really get your point across. Understand that the other side is in the process of digesting what you have just said. It doesn’t mean you get a quick, direct answer, or it may not be the answer you want anyway. The response is more likely to address an aspect that wasn’t mentioned yet. To get a broad picture of a discussion point. So, communication flows are somewhat different. It was helpful to be aware of that difference, to give the other party enough time to feel comfortable in this communication environment and not to shoot arrows back and forth. This can be fun, too, but at least in the Asian experience, I’d say it’s hard to get to this level. You would have to know someone really well to skip the circling around a topic. 134 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger <?page no="135"?> SH: You mentioned that you’ve been active in China, Korea, and Japan. Would you say that there are also cultural differences between these countries when it comes to communication? Or was it an Asian way of communication? CG: No, I would never call it an Asian way because the countries are very different, with even larger differences within the countries. As a representative in charge of these countries, you must travel to cities and local communities. And then you realise, “This is the same sort of game we have here in Germany or in other countries.” There are quite hefty regional differences that manifest in different characters and different environments. And people speak different dialects. That’s also important to be aware of. You are looked at as coming from a certain region. I was a German in Japan, and my office was in Tokyo. So that alone made me come from Honshu when I would go to, let’s say, Okinawa or Hokkaido. I wouldn’t be seen as a local for that reason alone, right, let alone not being Japanese at all. There isn’t an Asian, a Chinese, Japanese or Korean way. In practice I would first focus on the regional background of people, not necessarily their residence, so where they really come from and what their background is. That’s also an interesting topic for some ice-breaking or small talk. It is finding out where people really come from. Ideally, I would find some common ground or shared experience. By doing so, you can easily get clues and hints about the best way to communicate with each other. SH: What languages would you use in Japan? Would you speak Japanese or English? Or how can I think about your communication on the ground? CG: A combination of all three: Japanese, English and sometimes even German. That was also possible in some cases. Whatever the language, it was very helpful to speak much slower than I do now (in this interview). I think it makes life easier for everyone involved in Japan. Even if you are able to speak Japanese, it is better to speak slowly and clearly, just to give people more time to listen actively, as I said before. So, just slow down a bit. That helped, no matter what the language was. SH: Did you also work with Bavarian companies that are going to Japan? Or was it just Japanese companies coming to Europe? CG: It was basically both ways, both sides. Bavarian companies coming to Japan were looking for the Japanese market. Not only companies but also scientists, politicians, students, university professors, and basically everybody who was involved in the bilateral exchange between the two countries. And the same mix of parties and interests when dealing with the Japanese side. So it was a two-way bridge. SH: When you think about organisations coming to Japan, how important is it for them to have someone who speaks Japanese? CG: I think if you have the right partner or the right person - it could be an interpreter or a business partner, a relative, a friend - it certainly helps. But again, it comes down to personality. It can also be a hindrance if that person’s personality does not help you in the way you want. This was even more apparent in China, where some companies 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger 135 <?page no="136"?> brought their own interpreters or native speakers. But they were chosen only for their language skills, not their personality. In some cases, they would have been better off if they kept everything in English and at a non-native eye level, so to speak. It’s definitely not always the best choice to have a conversation in the local language unless you have the right people for it. You also have to agree with your business partner about the language beforehand. I think that’s always crucial. Don’t surprise anyone in Asia by changing the language on the spot. SH: I believe that there is something that goes beyond linguistic skills, beyond speaking Japanese or Chinese. This cultural fluency makes somebody really, really good at understanding what is happening around them in Japan or China. Have you come across people who are excellent at understanding the Japanese or Chinese mentality? And are able to swim like a fish in the water in that culture. Is there something called cultural fluency? CG: Yes! The fish and water example is very well framed. It’s probably best if you picture what happens to a fish or water, a river or stream when there’s a block. A big stone in the flow creates a lot of turbulence, a sort of chaos in the water. So, keep this image in mind when looking at communication or your behaviour in the local environment. As a foreigner, you would stand out very quickly; you may feel like a block in the water or even behave like a block in the water. Naturally, it will be helpful if you want to get noticed, but not so much in a business environment. The fluidity aspect certainly has something to it. But it should not be your priority. I would rather focus on what it takes to make people feel comfortable talking to you. And not just by the way you speak but also by the content. Meeting the other person’s expectations is equally important. I met people who were fluent in Japanese and behaved very much Japanese. I was able to judge because, after 12 years or so in Japan, your senses are shaped. Behaviour and appearance were seen as very much Japanese, but still, it has to match the content of a conversation. So, yes, localisation is good. If you keep the barriers down and lower the barriers and get access to people. But you must still provide the hard facts and information your counterpart expects. SH: I have come across many very successful managers in Japan and China who had somebody, a good friend, a partner, or a spouse who was like a cultural sparring partner for them. That gave them the chance to talk and who would then be able to translate culturally what was actually going on. CG: Yes, definitely. I’m in that situation myself. With a Japanese spouse and Japa‐ nese-German children, you get constant feedback or experience of the local view, as I would call it. But at the same time, how can I put it, you can reposition your perspective on things. Then, you have taken the first important step. You step out of your own boundaries and say, “OK, how could this have happened in this or that communication? Why did my counterpart react in such a way that I didn’t expect? ” Or just to clarify all the question marks that have come up during the day. Of course, the local native view is always helpful, but positioning yourself and turning the view around is equally 136 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger <?page no="137"?> valuable. And if you do this repeatedly, like as an exercise, you’ll find that it’s not always necessary to go to some relatives and ask for advice because you already figure out what is going on. Because you have already experienced that situation or a similar situation in your family. I am not saying that a company in Japan behaves like a family, but there are some aspects which resemble a private setting. You know, at the end of the day, most people want to feel comfortable with each other and be accepted and respected. And that’s very much so in a family private setting. SH: Do you think anyone can be an intercultural leader? Or does leadership ultimately depend on rank? CG: Well, it’s a training process. You cannot just be a leader right away. I wouldn’t say that there are born leaders and born non-leaders. And it’s not just training on the job. I mean, if you gradually grow into that position and feel comfortable with it, then, of course, you can take on leadership positions quite easily. I think it’s probably more difficult for people who are thrown into that leading position and then think to themselves, “Yeah, am I born for this or not? ” And I would say, “Yeah, it just takes a little bit of time to realise the best way to lead.” Again, it’s very much down to someone’s personality. Unless you’re very restricted in what you can actually do as a leader. I’ve seen that in some cases where you have a so-called leader in front of you, but they’re not really in the leadership position that the title would suggest. SH: I believe that trust is the ultimate glue that helps us connect with other people, particularly when we talk about communicating across cultures. In your experience, what is a good way of establishing trust across cultures? CG: I would certainly agree that trust is the glue, and that glue can be expanded and extended. It can be solidified and established very quickly. Sometimes, you immediately know that this is a counterpart who feels trustworthy right from the start. When I talked to Bavarian companies coming to Japan for the first time, I always reminded them, “Your prospective partner will expect you to think long-term in order to develop together. You have to convince them again and again why all the effort it takes for a Japanese to work with a non-Japanese is worthwhile. And you can only win them over if you can build up the same level of trust with them as they would with local Japanese companies. Only then can you cash in your bonus points, like superior technology, your unique product or experience, and everything that you bring to the table that a Japanese competitor could not. And honestly those points are the reason why they wanted to talk to you in the first place. But so you know, your reliability in handling future problems together, your trustworthiness, is equally judged. Knowing that when your relationship is challenged for the first time, whether it’s business or personal matters, you will focus on finding a solution rather than simply saying, “This isn’t working for this or that reason. Let’s rather break up.” So essentially, trust means that one can rely on the relationship even in difficult times. And those moments are sure to come, because Japanese or Asian business partners tend to be very demanding. You will have to prove sometimes on a daily basis that you are still 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger 137 <?page no="138"?> reliable and that you can answer questions. You must be aware of that when you start building relationships there. One group approaches this challenge by saying, “OK, we ourselves (as Germans) don’t have the nerve or the energy to build trust with Japanese customers, our partners, so to speak. Let’s find somebody who can do it for us. Let’s find a local representative to whom we can hand over this responsibility, so we are only a backup. That might even work. I mean, if you find such a representative with the right personality and character, it can work out fine as a start. But it will reach its limits soon if you think of measures like sales and turnover. Of course, there are those super-driven local leaders who really want to take your business to the level that you’re expecting. Yet I found another approach more interesting or proactive. They say, “OK, we know it’s going to be hard. It will be hard to focus on the Japanese business environment. But we are trying to handle it by ourselves, and we are giving clear feedback and a clear signal to our partners that we, as a Bavarian company, really want to develop our business in Japan. We listen to you. You listen to us. We learn from each other. We will still be Bavarians, and you will still be Japanese. But we find common ground.” And you keep the advantage that you can offer your valuable German market experience when it may become beneficial for your Japanese partners. Sometimes, it was a back-and-forth relationship that the Bavarian business side started in Japan, and eventually, the Japanese business partners became interested in also doing business in Germany. And then they would say, “Well, that’s great. We already have you as our partner. Why don’t you help us on our way to Germany? We can trust you. You know how the etiquette in Germany works.” This is an approach that I see preferable to the quick country representative solution. In the long run, personal engagement pays off. SH: What advice would you give these young people to build up your expertise in being communicative across cultures? CG: So figuratively speaking, become a fish and jump into all the waters you can find. Don’t stay on dry land for too long. You know, you will certainly get a feeling very quickly as to whether country A, B or C is the right one for you. I think that is what I have experienced, especially in China, where I welcomed a lot of young students, even those of high school age. When I talked to them, I’d say, “What do you think of the environment here? And do you feel comfortable? ” I did the same with German students who came to Japan or even Korea. You always find someone who says, “Yes, this is the right place. I really feel that I can imagine myself doing something here.” And other students would say, “No way, it won’t be worth the effort; I don’t feel at ease here.” But you can only make a sound judgement when you are in the middle of the stream and look around you and can say, “OK, my character and my personality fit in this culture and this society. Or it doesn’t. Or, if I really need to be there for some reason, there really has to be a very good incentive. I think the only way to find out is to jump into those waters. And you can do all of that by yourselves. I mean, it’s nice to have a helping hand in the beginning. Why not? But certainly, young people in all countries are much more connected now than they were in our times. They are much 138 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger <?page no="139"?> more informed and can become interested in other cultures. In that sense, finding your first stones to step on is easier than ever. Aha! This is Interesting • Christian advises us that we should realise that there are substantial social and cultural differences across regions. While we might be aware of such differences in our own continent, it is all too easy to assume that there is an “Asian,” “European,” or “American” way of doing things. Appreciating these regional nuances is crucial for successful intercultural communication and leadership. This line of thinking should also transcend to subnational variations. Understanding that there are local dialects and different ways of doing things signals respect for cultural subtleties. This, in turn, can make for more meaningful interactions. • Active listening is vital in intercultural communication. We want to be present, passionate and ready for what others have to say. According to Christian, there may be, however, regional differences in how people signal that they are “all ears.” In many Asian cultures, there can be a significant gap after someone speaks. This is because the interlocutors pause and digest what has just been said. By contrast, communication rhythms and turn-taking in other parts of the world (e.g., Europe) include more immediate responses. Here, interlocutors rely on different ways of signalling attentiveness (e.g. non-verbal, asking questions, etc.). • We need to build and continuously shore up trust, especially when working with partners who value long-term commitment (in this case, Japanese). There are two ways of dealing with demanding international business partners: We delegate trust-building to local representatives, or we make an effort to become directly involved. According to Christian, the latter approach is more effective. By engaging immediately with local partners, we can demonstrate reliability first-hand. While difficult situations may put our commitment to test, seeing challenges through can help mutual trust-building. This is the platform for long-term success and expanding business opportunities. More to Explore 1) Intercultural Leadership: Unplugged • What is “facework”? What are the concept’s implications for intercultural inter‐ actions? • Why is slowing down speaking and simplifying what you want to say in intercul‐ tural situations important? 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger 139 <?page no="140"?> 2) Leadership in East Asia • Turn-taking allows for the smooth exchange of information and ideas. In what surprising ways do communication flows differ between “East” and “West”? • There are huge variations in communication styles (and perhaps even languages) within single countries. How can understanding these differences help you to grasp the complex cultural landscapes in an Asian context? • Why is it not always the best choice to have a business conversation in the local native language? • Interpreters play a central role in facilitating intercultural communication. Why should we look beyond their mere language capabilities? How might their person‐ ality influence the quality of the dialogue? • What is “perspective-taking”? And how can stepping into another person’s shoes help improve one’s communication skills (in an Asian context)? • Japanese business partners can be very demanding. How can energy and commit‐ ment help firms build trust (and, by extension, succeed in the Japanese market)? • “You have to have a reason to be in Asia.” What roles do incentives (external rewards) and motivation (internal drives) play in living in another culture? 140 14 Interview with Christian Geltinger <?page no="141"?> Fourteen seasoned executives share their personal journeys of-adjusting their leadership styles to navigate the complex business landscapes of Europe and Asia. The look over their shoulders offers candid insights into the challenges and opportunities of building relationships across cultures. This book accompanies Intercultural Leadership: Humanistic Perspectives, using authentic experiences as a powerful way-of learning about leadership. Each interview invites readers to apply leadership concepts to practical situations, advancing deeper reflection on how to thrive in intercultural environments. The study of executives’ perspectives will help you polishing your intercultural leadership skills. Whether you’re a student or a professional, this book aims at motivating and guiding your learning journey. Management ISBN 978-3-8252-6375-1 This is a utb volume from UVK Verlag. utb is a cooperation of publishing houses with one common goal: to publish textbooks and learning media for successful studies. utb.de Scan this QR-Code for further information